AlanZ

Slander/Promotion of violence is illegal.
Shock content (like porn) should be tagged as such and censored for those who opt in for it, especially if the platform has children on it.
I think social media sites have the right (and responsibility) to remove bigoted content
Sharing personal information should be illegal

No offense but I can tell you don't have fictitious news stories cited when people shout slurs in your face IRL. That would probably change your mind on how social media companies should operate.

Also how is this a 'nanny state', its a social media platform, not a government. Outside of some basic "it should be illegal to commit terrorism" statements, I haven't really talked about legal issues here.

At the end of the day, Telegrams CEO was arrested because he didn't do squat over user safety. Fully deserved IMO.

    locked That's very true, but I also kind of doubt they would go over telegram of all places if it was about private messages.

    Granted, that might be a byproduct of this whole ordeal anyways, which is unfortunate.

    GeorgeSoros We explicitly make it so we're not in a position to provide data since we don't get it in the first place. We don't offer any service that would require user data like Telegram. Telegram could've made E2EE the default but chose to instead develop their platform in a way where the vast majority of 1-1 chats and all group chats are not E2EE and therefore is information that can be asked for.

      • Edited

      raccoondad

      Slander/Promotion of violence is illegal.
      Shock content (like porn) should be tagged as such and censored for those who opt in for it, especially if the platform has children on it.
      I think social media sites have the right (and responsibility) to remove bigoted content
      Sharing personal information should be illegal.

      Your personal take (and maybe that of your community or government) on what is illegal and what should be banned does not give you the right to dictate that bullshit worldwide. Different places - different ideas, different definitions of what freedom means.

      No offense but I can tell you don't have fictitious news stories cited when people shout slurs in your face IRL. That would probably change your mind on how social media companies should operate.

      Nothing would change my mind when it comes to absolute freedom of expression. Don't superimpose your laughable fragility on me.

        • Edited

        matchboxbananasynergy That's good to hear, as always. But what about the discussion forum? I would presume, if not identifiers, at least email addresses would be present?

        Edit: This discussion won't stay unlocked for very long...

          yore I imagine, assuming they work like a standard discourse instance, IP, email, password hash are stored.

          That being said, how much of that links you to whatever you do with GOS is...questionable. Assuming GOS operates in the US, they also only would have to respond to US legal requests

          • yore replied to this.

            yore People don't need to use the forum to use the OS. You're willingly providing an e-mail etc.

            AlanZ Time to settle down, I think.

            You are both talking past each other, and while as people here can definitely attest to, am very opinionated, I can see where each of you are coming from.

            The way you're trying to communicate this, though, isn't productive. Mostly referring to @AlanZ and their unneeded comments about the other person's "fragility", especially when you consider the heinous content that often circulates on Telegram. It's not always about "fragility".

              And a general note:

              We locked this thread, and then decided to unlock it and see how it goes. The moderation team is looking at this thread closely, and if things get out of hand, the thread might be locked again, and posts might be deleted.

              This is the community's chance to show that it can discuss charged topics without the forum being degraded to a battlefield. Try to remember that at the end of the day, we're all here because of our shared interest in privacy, security, and GrapheneOS. There are plenty of things that make us different, and we might need security and privacy for different reasons, but let's try to focus on our common interests rather than the differences - goes a long way towards having productive discussions.

              • Edited

              raccoondad It's not Discourse but Flarum. Not that it matters much in this case.

              But I suppose it mostly comes down to OPSEC rather than a hypothetical warrant. "Never share too much."

              @matchboxbananasynergy Couldn't have worded that better. Your work is much appreciated around here mods.

              raccoondad i do understand some content to be moderated as mentioned above. However what is misinformation??? Who are you as the government (any government) to tell me what that is and attempt to sensor me for my own good?? Elon Musk going through something similar in Brazil. Should he had been there he would likely face arrest.

              • [deleted]

              AlanZ Couldn't agree more.

              • [deleted]

              Telegram while not providing E2EE by default, provided the most robust and trustworthy platform. Durov's history showed that he will stand up for his users, and also reduce unjust censorship.

                • Edited

                matchboxbananasynergy Yes, but as I stated in some of my posts, France's complaint isn't fully understood What are their true intentions? Let me remind people that there is a war going on, and both sides are accusing the other, again of misinformation. It's the west who is crying foul the most, even while the main stream media is the biggest source of misinformation. I will also point to the fact that we have seen this before. Just recently Zuckerberg confirmed in a letter that he was pressured to censor information about covid that actually turned out to be true! Also, another suspicious action, is why did they spontaneously arrest Durov? If there was an ongoing investigation on him, and they determined that they needed to arrest him, why wasn't the warrant issued already??? Instead, they arrest him when he arrives in France by surprise. This does not pass the smell test. Having a hard time believing what we are being told exactly is true.

                Governments like to control narratives, especially at war time, and sm platforms like telegram, fb, tiktok, x, etc, throw a wrench in that, and they like it none. Hence the committees that had been formed by DHS to combat this, which for now have been decommissioned. Europe has the DSA (Digital Services Act). There is also a law floating around in the EU ( not sure of current status) That if passed, will have major consequences for privacy. It basically gives them back door access to all of your devices including iot. Similar bills have circulated around in the past in the U.S. SO there is definitely cause for concern, and government should certainly be scrutinized by the public.

                Just to set the record straight regarding the official explanation, here’s the gist of the prosecutor’s press release (August 28):

                Against Durov:

                — Complicity in the administration of an online platform to enable an illicit transaction, in an organised band;
                — Refusal to communicate, at the request of authorised authorities, the information or documents necessary to the execution and the exploitation of the interceptions authorised by the law;
                — Complicity in making available, without a legitimate reason, a programme or data designed to harm an automated data processing system, in diffusion of pedopornographic images in an organised band, in drug trafficking, fraud in organised band, in a criminal conspiracy to commit crimes or offences;
                — Laundering of crimes or offences in an organised band;
                — Provision of cryptology services to ensure confidentiality without declaration of conformity;
                — Supply and import of a cryptology means that does not exclusively perform authentication or integrity control functions without prior declaration.

                Preliminary investigation began in February 2024.
                Coincidentally, also in February 2024, 10 persons were brought to court for selling teenagers’ sex tapes on Telegram.

                Source: https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/75/communiques-de-presse-1

                  Telegram has to refuse certain requests and we mustn't forget that everything happens under the Western prism, which means that we end up with telegram channels blocked in France. France and the EU censor pro-Russian content but not pro-EU or pro-US content, they accuse Hamas of being a terrorist group whereas for others it's more of a resistance group, they also censored anti-Covid vaccine content at the time.

                  Telegram also needs to be moderated to combat paedocriminality, harassment, etc.

                  leafnose Why does France have jurisdiction to charge Durov? If they don't like the content, they could take steps to curve its use in France, by having it removed from app stores, and taking other measures. Imagine if every country in the world charged him with this. I just don't see how they have any jurisdiction for any of it.

                  Telegram had already stepped up its moderation for anyone who follows. Indecent content is increasingly being blocked. It's easier said than done. My biggest concern is that there are other motives for this, including not liking the coverage allowed from Russia about the Ukraine war which conflicts with the west's narrative. A war which by the way Ukraine is clearly loosing, and western feathers are being severely ruffled over it.

                  Let me also mention that when Russia had a problem years back with Durov, and he had to leave the country. He was a beacon of democracy in the eyes of the west. He was a figher of tyranny, dictatorship, communism etc.... No this just stinks total B.S. again, I am for censorship of indecent content in public channels, but there is more to this than just that.

                    Anyone who cares about some form of free speech shouldn't use Telegram because it was never designed to protect it, think of Telegram as a Discord with very lax moderation.

                    If you're a public platform moderator and you refuse to comply with a request from the authorities (for whatever reason) because you know that user data is accessible, you're asking for trouble.

                    As another example, users on a public forum shouldn't be surprised if their malicious posts can be used by indexing robots or used against them in an ongoing investigation.

                    locked France has jurisdiction since Telegram operates in France and is charged for complicity of several grave offences committed in France. Just like any other country. If you provide a service in a country, you have to respect the rules of that country, whatever the service.