• General

  • Is GrapheneOS a net privacy gain over iOS in my situation?

I am currently using an iPhone- still in support but just barely. In addition to privacy concerns, even the cheapest iPhone is ridiculously expensive. A Pixel 6 or 6A is affordable for me and I would much prefer to move to GrapheneOS. Other than a few of Apple’s services, I am not really reliant on any proprietary services. I self-host a Nextcloud instance which takes care of calendars/contacts/files/photos/notes. I don’t use any social media. The only proprietary services that I’m currently reliant on are Apple Maps and iMessage. I’m aware of the map options on GrapheneOS and that isn’t a concern to me. Messaging, on the other hand, is a concern. With the exception of two people who agreed to use Signal with me, literally every one of my contacts uses iMessage. I don’t expect anyone else to adopt Signal or any other messaging service for that matter. This means that, if I switch to GrapheneOS, 90% of my messaging with occur in SMS. There’s nothing I can do about that. I guess my question is this: given the context, would the gain in overall privacy I may achieve in freeing myself from Apple’s data collection outweigh the privacy that I’d be giving up by becoming more reliant on SMS? I don’t do a ton of messaging and I'm not passing any big secrets but it is the main means of my communication with most people. As I understand it, SMS is totally unencrypted while iMessage is supposedly E2E encrypted. This really is my only hesitation.

Looking at the network traffic, I’m astounded at the amount of calls the iPhone makes to Apple servers (and ironically Google servers as well), when the device is idol. I’d be inclined to move to GrapheneOS for that reason alone. Any thoughts?

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    • Post #2
    • Edited

    Renewably3997 You are not reliant on anything but yourself. Be your own boss, don't follow the sheep into the slaughterhouse and make your own way.

    I am sure if you choose a privacy respecting messenger of your own choice, those who care about you would obtain it to stay in touch with you, the rest don't matter.

        [deleted] With all due respect to your point of view, that's not what the OP is asking. They said they will use SMS to keep in contact with those they have no other way of contacting if they switch to GrapheneOS. They are asking for a comparison of the privacy of two set-ups they are considering.

            Since SMS is inherently insecure, why is whether he is using GrapheneOS or iOS even relevant?

            Am I confused again?

              Blastoidea iMessage only uses SMS for non-Apple correspondents. It encrypts communications using its own messaging service for Apple-Apple communications. It's my understanding that iCloud Backups will backup iMessage logs so that Apple's servers can read them, but this may have changed recently, as there was some talk of Apple using end-to-end encryption for iCloud, I believe.

                I'm sorry to have caused so much trouble here. Basically, I was just hoping for an opinion. I'd like to move to GOS but, given my circumstances, I'm not sure if it would be an upgrade or downgrade in terms of overall privacy. I don't like the fact that I'd be utilizing SMS so much more than I do now but I really have no idea what sort of data Apple is sending to themselves every few minutes and it bothers me that the iPhone is constantly communicating with Apple even when I'm not using it. Maybe I'm making more out of it than it's worth?

                  Renewably3997

                  I'm sorry to have caused so much trouble here.

                  That's hardly your fault. People tend to have strong opinions when it comes to technology, which naturally leads to clashes.

                  I'd like to move to GOS but, given my circumstances, I'm not sure if it would be an upgrade or downgrade in terms of overall privacy.

                  I used iOS for the past 10 years and moved to GrapheneOS last month with a Pixel 6a. My advice is to buy the Pixel 6a, not the Pixel 6, as you get a year more of support, and the size is most similar to iPhones. I'm quite happy with the experience. The people I was messaging used Android anyway, so I was SMSing them through iMessage. Little has changed for me, except I can now backup my Signal conversations, I have better battery life than my iPhone 8, and I trust my phone more. GrapheneOS also offers stronger security guarantees than iOS—have a look at some of the features. For one thing, Chromium-based browsers are more secure than browsers using the Webkit engine like Safari.

                  As for privacy, if all of your contacts use an iPhone, iMessage is more private than SMS messaging on Android for most threat models. If any of the people you're contacting move to an Android phone, they will be using SMS, which offers no privacy improvement. I would say iMessage's superiority in privacy is a precarious one designed to lock you in. These communications are important, but so long as you are aware they are not private, you might choose to say some important things only in person.

                  Who knows—maybe your contacts will be so annoyed by the lack of MMS capability that they'll offer to message you on Signal? This isn't my experience, but you can always hope.

                  Escaping from Apple has been a liberating experience. iPhones are hard to integrate with any of the other technology I own, so every time I wanted to extract photos or get files onto the phone, it was a harrowing experience. My Pixel 6a, on the other hand, connected right to all of my computers, offering at least two easy methods of transferring files, with transparent access to the filesystem. I also don't need to use Google Play if I don't want to—I can download APKs directly from the developer and manage updates with Obtainium. I don't even need to use a proprietary version of Android or iOS on my phone. I can use a free software operating system like GrapheneOS which is aligned with my interests, not Google's or Apple's.

                  Privacy is one of my top concerns, but sovereignty is another. Apple might offer you privacy, but they only offer it to you on their terms, and with caveats. If you're using an Android phone, you are not worthy of privacy in Apple's eyes, and they refuse to develop even a basic iMessage client for Android or provide Android developers with the ability to develop their own.

                  I really have no idea what sort of data Apple is sending to themselves every few minutes and it bothers me that the iPhone is constantly communicating with Apple even when I'm not using it.

                  GrapheneOS will not do this. Google Play Services might communicate with Google's servers, but you can choose when and how you use it by installing it in another profile. If you don't need certain apps only available on Google Play, you can eschew using these apps at all.

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                    • Post #9

                    If the only thing you are giving up for a phone that doesn't constantly phone home and else where, is iMessage. I would say that you are going to gain more privacy overall and lose a little bit in a very specific way.

                    I personally annoy the crap out of all my iphone and android friends about signal every few months lol. I got my family to use it and a few of my friends which is a slow win lol.

                    At the end of the day this is a personal decision that only you can make.

                    Coming from iOS myself I can say with full confidence I wouldn't go back. To add some pathos to it the change felt like breathing again after a deep dive.

                    On a more factual matter it is your decision alone. Only you know what kind of information you send in unencrypted SMS and if anybody who shouldn't would read them. Nobody cares if you bought a new pair of glasses if you catch my meaning.

                    But if you care deeply about your privacy and would like to take the next steps than you may have to have some unpleasant conversations with your contacts and try to convince them that other messengers might be as a secure or even better than iMessage - just a little less convenient.

                    On a personal note: if privacy matters to you I am convinced that it should be your decision what you do next, completely independent from other people's choices. But I understand that this may cause more trouble than it feels worth it so ultimately it's up to you and what you are willing to invest.

                    I too badgered everyone with whom I wish to communicate into using secure texting. (Signal, Wikr, Session)

                    The one guy who flat out refused, I pretty much ignore.

                    Renewably3997 FWIW I simply presume that sms messages are postcards that are read/recorded numerous times (as is most email) and accept it. IF there is something that I don't want to be seen, I'll use proton mail requiring my correspondent to log in using a previously shared passphrase: resulting in an encrypted connection to his letter. Of course if his computer is compromised, this connection is compromised as well.

                    As far as the general IPhone vs GOS privacy tradeoff, I lost faith in my IPhone when this was revealed:

                    https://futurism.com/apple-scan-iphone-images-child-sexual-abuse

                    It is the principle of IOS using MY iphone to scan my usage without my permission - no matter how noble the cause - that I reject. Apple has officially cancelled this spying, but IMHO they will try something else in the future on their own volition, or under pressure by State/National governments

                      Aside the imessage thing you probably will not notice much difference. You should use the Pixel for a few days and see if you can get along with the oled flickering that the screen shows. I don't use my 6a as a daily driver because it stresses my eyes, i prefer the lcd screens who are much easier to read.

                      But apart from that, Graphene OS is really working well. I also have an iPhone XR, but i wouldn't say there is anything missing and Graphene is very stable, never had something that didn't work. Their web browser is working well, the usability is excellent (if you can manage your iOS settings, you will manage the Graphene settings too).

                      A problem could be that you use iMessage. If you really use this daily, it might be annoying to switch from iOS to Android. If i had a service that is really only running on one specific platform, it's not worth to change the OS.

                      And think about that the iphones get much longer support. Graphene supports Pixels mostly for the time Google supports these, and that is only half the time that iPhones get nowadays. That doesn't make them so expensive if you really use these as long as they get supported.

                      So i think a change will not make you lucky. In my case the 6a oled screen makes me still use the iPhone XR as a daily driver and i plan to do this, until it's really dead or doesn't get supported anymore.

                      I could think that your "screen" will be the missing imessage feature and that will make it hard to use only Android.

                      But in general, Graphene OS is really great, easy to install or uninstall, easy to use, no real bugs and constant security updates. If i should ever switch fully to Android, then there is no other choice than a Pixel running GrapheneOS.

                        MineralWater

                        And think about that the iphones get much longer support. Graphene supports Pixels mostly for the time Google supports these, and that is only half the time that iPhones get nowadays.

                        I am fairly sure iPhones are not supported for 10 years but I would be fine with an example that proves otherwise?

                            Renewably3997

                            I can only add to the good answers given by the previous speakers:
                            Consider the eternal security vulnerabilities of iMessage.
                            Most zero-day exploits were in connection with iMessage.
                            That's why I have deactivated iMessage on my iPhones for years and only use the iMessage client for receiving SMS (some companies still send SMS, sometimes still 2FA, otherwise I wouldn't need SMS at all).
                            The email client was also very dangerous with iOS, which is why I had even deleted the email client.

                            With Tutanota, I have a secure email client with E2EE.
                            As a messenger, I am using Threema since December 2020 and additional Session since September 2022.
                            If I were you, I would tell all my SMS contacts about the planned change and suggest Session for confidential messages, because hardly anyone wants to pay money for a messenger and some people would have to use a (different) messenger just for you.
                            I don't think Signal is safe because it requires a phone number and unnecessarily supports MobileCoins.
                            But if you trust Signal, then it's similar like me with Threema and Session:
                            With Threema I have the most contacts and conversations with friends. Session is my plan B, if Client-side scanning or Chat control is coming (https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/chat-control/) andThreema could not defend itself.

                            I've been a happy user of a Pixel 7 Pro with GrapheneOS since March. :-)

                                In regards to iMessage, I want to say you might not need to lose it. If you have Mac(or another computer running MacOS) and you don't mind leaving on all the time connected to the internet you can use AirMessage. I've used it personally and It works okay.

                                Imo iMessage is better than SMS but this ofcourse dependends on your threat model(not sure if this nomaclature is applicable to privacy)

                                Eagle_Owl
                                We (my family and I) like Session.

                                There was trouble with wobbly notifications early in this year, but it seems to have gone away.

                                  Pacienco

                                  I am fairly sure iPhones are not supported for 10 years but I would be fine with an example that proves otherwise?

                                  iPhones still offer the longest support period of any phone on the market. The iPhone 6S is still supported today with iOS15, which is still getting security fixes.

                                  iOS15 is somewhat special, in that it's the first version of iOS to be supported for more than a year, but nonetheless, the iPhone 6S is getting almost 8 years worth of updates. It's reasonable to think, based on past experience, that newer iPhones will be supported for longer.

                                  So if all you care about is cost (and you expect your phone to never need repairing), the latest iPhone SE is a very cost-effective purchase, because total cost of ownership will continue to go down over the years. If you hold the phone for 6-7 years, you get slightly more bang for your buck than the Google Pixel, assuming you don't buy on sale. But it's still very close. And you also have to take into account total battery capacity degradation over time. iPhone battery replacements are expensive.

                                    Renewably3997 I don't like the fact that I'd be utilizing SMS so much more than I do now but I really have no idea what sort of data Apple is sending to themselves every few minutes and it bothers me that the iPhone is constantly communicating with Apple even when I'm not using it.

                                    GrapheneOS:
                                    you control what is sent over sms
                                    you control what apps/services can access
                                    no background communication from the OS

                                    Ios:
                                    iMessage is private from certain parties
                                    limited control over what apps/services can access
                                    full background communication from the OS

                                    i would posit that as long as you take the necessary measures when communicating over sms, you have much more control which enables much better privacy with GrapheneOS. I am a former iphone user, am completely happy with GrapheneOS and encourage you to take the step if you feel you would benefit.

                                    Good luck on you privacy journey!

                                      Renewably3997

                                      There are a LOT of reason to move away from apple. Cost is a one. freedom from the walled garden and app choice is another.

                                      In regards to iMessage I would say, do your text messages contain that much private data? Is iMessages really protecting you that much? Is iMessage not subject to government hand over? (I ask cuz I actually dont know this one.)
                                      Remember, even if you protect your messages on your end, the other person can always compromise your conversations simply by sending it to the cloud or other giving other apps access to their messages. I'm not familiar with the privacy of apple iMessages so I can't say.

                                      But I personally absolutely hate being milked for money by any company specially by apple. Pay a lot of money and then be locked in their app dystopia.

                                      I'm not going anywhere specific with this rant. Its a hard choice friend.

                                      Perhaps having iMessage protect all your conversations might be significant enough for you to stay. Only you'd know that cause we don't know the content of your conversations and the prevalence of your usage.

                                      Remember that by not having an apple phone or a phone that runs google play you are helping the privacy of the world and not just yourself. These phones spy on everyone around you as well through their wifi and bluetooth spyware.