First post - let me know if there’s a general thread this should have gone in.

Currently deeply integrated in iOS (phone, watch, TV, etc). I’ve done a lot of research on both platforms but due to the technical nature of security/privacy I struggle to understand what matters for my threat model. In short, I worry about accounts getting hijacked, identity theft, malware, spyware, etc. I’m uncomfortable with the amount of data collected on me but since I likely am a “normal” user I don’t think I stand out in any way.

Consider two set ups:

  1. Graphene OS running sandboxed play. I would want to get RCS, Android Auto, notifications, and call screening enabled. I would only use the play store for app down loads. There is a 0% chance my friends would move to Signal or other apps recommended in privacy circles.

  2. iOS with cloud+. I would turn off most settings that allow data collection (I know there will still be a ton collected). Encryption enabled with location services off for everything but maps. Instal something like Brave or Firefox Focus.

—

Which is more private?

Which is more secure from people (malware, spyware, accessing my accounts, etc.)?

Does Graphene OS lose a lot of the benefits when you heavily rely on play services?

    It depends in my view on whether someone would specifically target you. If you have a large amount of money, GOS offers some small amount of benefit over iOS if someone were to try to hack the OS to hack you.

    But most hacking doesn't really work this way, trying to break into iOS or GOS. Instead, a lot of it relies on user error and users choosing weak security settings or rarely targeting new security issues, more often targeting browser vulnerabilities that aren't patched.

    A lot of hacking involves breaching a remote server, which is hard to do, then selling the data to low level crooks and "hackers" who engage in fraud.

    GOS has a browser that is constantly updated, like all the time, but Apple isn't that known for having a lot of exploits.

    I think for you, personally, GOS is only going to make it slightly less likely you get hacked. If you have proper 2FA not susceptible to a Sim swap, you're probably not going to be hacked either way.

    Some Apps just will not work on GOS because of Google Play integrity api.

    For you, low threat model, you could go with iOS, unless you think extremely high security is interesting, then go with GOS.

    If you could be at all targeted, like if you're journalist or political activist or politician or ethnic minority in a country with racism or sexual minority in almost every country, then go with GOS.

      Hey--I run both platforms and I think you can't go wrong either way for security. By far the greatest vector for malware/'hacking' will be through vectors like browser extensions, clicking on phishing links in emails/texts, user error stuff like that. Both platforms are well hardened against that type of malware, but if your concern escalates above that into directly being targeted by the state or another similar scale adversary then I'd 100% go with GOS.

      As far as privacy goes, GOS wins imo. iOS has a reputation for good privacy but I've noticed from my controlD logs that my pixel running GOS has no background/idle network chatter and sends out no telemetry, whereas the most blocked domains are all iOS telemetry from my iphones. GOS also does a better job of letting you fine tune app permissions with deeper control than iOS imo, such as with storage scopes.

      I will say the downside of running a multiplatform setup is losing out on the ecosystem of convenience, especially for your situation coming from an all-apple setup. If you don't feel super inclined to stick with icloud, safari, keychain, etc there's many cross platform apps to replace those like ente, brave, other password managers, etc that you can run on macos and GOS.

      Also imo the best way to harden your personal security goes beyond what OS you use--freezing/locking credit reports, using email aliases for everything, 2FA on all accounts, and removing your info from data brokers is far more impactful imo.

        I mean honestly, it sounds like in either case that they (ios/ google) wont be able to collect a lot of data about you. if you are using the phone as described.

        And your biggest "hacking" risk is probably phishing or password leaks, like it is for everyone. The OS cant do much about that.

        But in the end grapheneOs itself does not collect data about you. There will be less data collected about you with the grapheneOs solution than the IOS solutilon.

        Furthermore ofc there is always like a matter of principle as in what do you want to support.

        Sectorsblue There is a 0% chance my friends would move to Signal or other apps recommended in privacy circles.

        Feel you

          Sectorsblue Google sells your data, it also knows that you use GrapheneOS. iOS does not sell your data. GrapheneOS without Google is private like iOS, with Google it's as I wrote above. The level of security is similar. I would give a point to the iPhone that erases after 10 unsuccessful unlocking attempts, which makes brute force unlocking ineffective

            baby_bat iOS has a reputation for good privacy

            So, Apple has been successful in its marketing, erasing "Celebgate" from public memory, even of the privacy community (:

            tbf to Apple, they do now take security super seriously. Unsure about privacy, but may be that, too, as the marketing department seems to want it. And it is the marketing department is that runs Tim's Apple.

            baby_bat I've noticed from my controlD logs

            Analysing DNS queries for background activity is woefully inadequate and misleading. Any app (even the installed unprivileged ones) can talk to any DNS endpoint, not just the one a user sets (either via Private DNS, or Wifi/DHCP, or VPN).

                  angela I really like what GrapheneOS stands for and that’s probably why I’m even considering nuking my ultra convenient set-up.

                  I appreciate all the thoughtful responses. A lot of YouTube content focuses entirely on privacy while ignoring security. I find the M2, password scrambling, user profiles, and other features to be most compelling.

                    I assume there’s a no politics rule for the forum so I’ll keep this hypothetical very vague.

                    If you’re in a country the US has become increasingly hostile towards, but don’t plan on travel to the US, are you at any risk using iOS or Graphene? Since I’d be using play services it seems like they’d be fairly similar if your adversary is the government.

                    I’m not actually that worried but when there’s a strong movement to buy local and stop depending on the US you realize tech is the hardest to replace.

                    Does Graphene have ties to any country?

                      baby_bat what is your replacement for iCloud storage? I looked at Proton which seems okay. For photos it’s a bit janky.

                        Sectorsblue If you’re in a country the US has become increasingly hostile towards, but don’t plan on travel to the US, are you at any risk using iOS or Graphene? Since I’d be using play services it seems like they’d be fairly similar if your adversary is the government.

                        If your concern is the us goverment spying and not ads, that i would definitly recommend you grapheneOs.

                        For example apple disabled end to end encryption in the uk for icloud storage, because their govement wanted a back door. (Please correct me if this is not correct anymore)

                        I personally would not trust that the us goverment does not spy on foreign apple users.

                        (i can not prove this, i am just saying that it is technically possible)

                        And it is not the same, on grapheneOs google play service is just like any other app on your phone. They can not spy like apple could on you with this. (Anyone feel free to provide how they could)

                          ignoramous You quote an article that is more than 10 years old... the fact that Apple does marketing is normal, it's a company.

                            I often see people talking about espionage on this forum, nowadays if you are spied on you will not know, except by analyzing the lines of code on your phone, or if you know someone in nice espionage and who will inform you (no one)

                              I'd share a similar story in terms of switching to GOS.

                              I've been "appled" for years after switching from Android (years in also). Then I switched back to Android and it felt like a such a relief. Obviously, without knowing the privacy and security issues.

                              Then I went through a rabbit hole and found that there's literary no way to escape from today's privacy burden.

                              Long story short, I've switched to GOS since a month ago and can't be happier.

                              Less useless notification, no tracking, stable system, etc.

                              Obviously it comes with some trade offs and it's all dependable on your "threat-model". I have none apart from keeping my life more private and it works!

                              Sectorsblue

                              If there were such a threat (such the US government ordering US companies to spy on Canadian users via secret backdoors, with the demand implemented in court), then iOS users would possibly not know.

                              Programming languages are readable by humans but not machines.

                              A compiler makes them readable by machines (1s and 0s).

                              Apple writes code, compiles it, and no one reads the code. So if iOS were to put in a "Snoop on Canadians" backdoor, it would be in 0s and 1s that users can't read.

                              Graphene OS is open source. The programming code is listed. The compile code is there, but you can also compile it yourself.

                              So how would someone know if the compiled code and written code for Graphene were the same? A hash calculator takes a fingerprint of the code, letting people compare if the files have been tampered with.

                              If Graphene developers publish code, and someone compiles it, it should match the hash value of the binary machine code that is released.

                              That's why people trust open source code, because corrupt or heroic governments can't force software developers to alter their code when it's open, they can do this with iOS. This doesn't mean they've done that. We don't know.

                              Closed source code is Always a guess. Hopefully, this code does what they say and doesn't do anything bad.

                              It doesn't mean all open source code is secure. Sometimes open source code is so big (lots and lots of code) that someone can slip in some malicious code. It's rare but has happened.

                              If any people who have expertise in computer science want to correct any mistakes in this explanation, please correct them!

                                  angela Apple writes code, compiles it, and no one reads the code. So if iOS were to put in a "Snoop on Canadians" backdoor, it would be in 0s and 1s that users can't read.

                                  That is not a true statement. Even compiled code can be reverse engineered, although that's a pretty complicated and tedious process. Through other types of forensics you can also have a pretty good guess at what code does. Especially on the network side of things.