fid02 I remember this article written by Bruce Schneier which I had then lost sight of, thank you, it's very topical 19 years on and will remain so for years to come.

    lcalamar The discussion around "why should i care about online privacy" in my mind is immediately the wrong frame, the real discussion needs to start with the fundamental precep that we are all born equal, if you accept we are all born equal, then it follows we are all entitled to equal atonomy, responsibility, rights (access to resources) etc applied to privacy that means we either all have the right to know everything about everyone, or nothing about anyone... Im in the nothing about anyone camp, and every person, or entity that uses some form of power/advantage to take that right from me without consent is directly attempting to gain advantage over me though exercising control of my rights. Whether i have anything to hide has zero to do with why it is wrong. It is wrong because it is disrespecting my rights, and because i am not given the eqivalent level of transparency into those exercising the control.

      "I have nothing to hide." Nothing becomes something overnight. Who would have thought your private (made public) views about a medication would cost you your job before 2020? Or that certain political candidate you support would result in your bank closing your accounts before 2016? Or your private religious beliefs and traditions would have you targeted by 3 letter agencies before 2023? All of this in the "freest" country on earth (allegedly). Everyone has something to hide even when they shouldn't...

      After much review... It seems that one of the basic tenets of privacy is that while I have nothing to hide...

      ... someone else may determine that you DO.

      It isn't up to the person to decide they have nothing to hide because that judgement doesn't belong to them.

        You need to start looking for smarter friends.

        Privacy is also more than just "I have done nothing wrong," because malicious actors can hurt you with information that is perfectly normal or reasonable to have. For example, researchers have revealed that Facebook tracks if you have problems with alcoholism or gambling, for example, and serves you more ads for alcohol products and casinos: https://www.admscentre.org.au/research-reveals-facebook-alcohol-and-gambling-companies-target-ads-at-australians-most-at-risk-of-harm/

        Now maybe YOU don't have problems with alcohol or gambling, but what other innocent aspects of your life will corporations capitalize on, at your expense? If your Facebook app, with always-on location tracking, determines that you tend to drive over the speed limit, they can alert your car insurance company to raise your rates. If TikTok has always-on Bluetooth scanning (to connect to speakers), it will figure out who you live with, because it will detect their phone's Bluetooth MAC at regular times of day. If your roommate/child/spouse/whatever later goes to, say, a protest (or an abortion clinic, or whatever) and other phones with TikTok detect their phone's Bluetooth MAC, TikTok can now easily figure out their identity, where they live, and what their habits are.

        I have seen how innocent statements can be interpreted differently, and unintended meanings attached to them.

        This can be terrifying, if it is then used against you.

        It can happen in any adversarial proceeding, employer vs employee, law enforcement vs citizen, prosecutor vs defendant, and so on.

        It’s much better if only the intended recipient(s) can ever see what we write, or say.

        lcalamar ... adding to this:

        ... and those judgements happen to people with nothing to hide's - associates.
        So while you may have nothing to hide - if I communicate with you online - then all of the sudden you are putting me at risk...

          Watermelon That is really good....

          This part is very strong: "Not all information in your control is yours to share. Information shared privately with you by friends, family, and coworkers is not yours to reveal to a government, company, or another person

          ... for instance I use ProtonMail - but since 90% of my emails go out to non-secured emails - then my content is being scanned anyway? I know other users who refuse to send emails outside a secured environment... I can force that issue in ProtonMail - but then 90% of that 90% just won't bother...

            In my experience, changing people's beliefs is very hard. People will believe what they want to believe, regardless of what you say or how you say it. Making arguments about what another person "should" or "should not" do usually has the opposite effect.

            I don't bring it up anymore and I don't use the word "privacy". If directly asked why I don't use Meta's services, I'll say:

            I think making money by exploiting people is unethical and I want fewer companies with those business models in the world. I prefer to use software and services that respect me.

            That's the entire reason; you can agree with it or not, but that's why.

              Equal2024 In my experience, changing people's beliefs is very hard

              Yes - it IS.

              I've been pushing the privacy issue with a friend mostly to help him understand why privacy is important to me - and perhaps help change his judgement that the xtra work I put in to being private IS worthwhile (for me).

              He couldn't believe I don't use ChatGPT - and that any privacy related concerns are mitigated by the value I get.

              Now though - I informed him about venice.ai and use it as an example where you CAN be more private and not give up much functionality...

                Equal2024 I think making money by exploiting people is unethical and I want fewer companies with those business models in the world. I prefer to use software and services that respect me.

                ... even more-so I don't use Meta because not only are they exploiting people for money - but they are using people's private data to keep them mis-informed (at best)...

                  "I am not doing anything wrong so why do I care about privacy?"

                  Because "wrong" is defined arbitrarily. A lot of people want me dead for existing, so I have to protect myself in some capacity.

                  lcalamar To each his own fight, I knew that I completely didn't give a fuck about my digital privacy the day Free mobile was stolen 20 million identifiers and 500 thousand RIBs and that I told myself I don't care

                    I started because of financial security, starting with news about some notable data breaches. I also learned too much about how most financial institutions handle security, which got me to realize I cannot rely solely on their guidance and instructions. I figured the next best way to prevent unauthorized access is to make it so as few people try to access my accounts as possible. The best way I figured to do that was to embrace online privacy and decentralize/anonymize myself as much as possible so that financial/professional me is not connected to online versions of me to avoid any sensitive info being shared during eventual data breaches.

                    After years of this, I became more fascinated in general by privacy in general, both because of the creepy factor and because I despise censorship. I believe privacy and freedom of speech go hand in hand.

                    Lastly, this may sound dark, but I have a thing about not wanting to be on lists. Being on a list is what helped the nazis track down and eventually exterminate Jews during the Holocaust. That lesson from history stuck with me. Anything that is fine here and today could lead to extreme suffering or unexpected consequences tomorrow or somewhere else. Privacy is the common sense hedge against that uncertainty.

                      DirtyDan Lastly, this may sound dark, but I have a thing about not wanting to be on lists.

                      Not dark at all - very very valid point. And it applies to ANY list even the only-annoying marketing lists. The more dangerous lists are the historical ones you mentioned. Currently governments (and yes - the U.S. is one of the worst for this) - are tracking who is protesting, what, where and when...

                      • HMC likes this.

                        Lots of great advice and tips here... the recommended videos were excellent and helpful. I've pretty much narrowed down the main issues to:

                        • While you don't feel you are doing anything wrong - by not being private you are allowing others to determine that you ARE doing something wrong and respond accordingly

                        • Everything you see online is being forced upon you based on your online history.
                          --- You have lost any semblance of information 'freedom', as well as any ability to make informed non-biased and factual decisions
                          --- The price you pay for goods and services are adjusted (not in a good way)

                        • Being private online is not about hiding secrets; it's about maintaining control over your digital presence and protecting yourself from potential risks associated with sharing sensitive information in a public space
                          --- If you believe you have nothing to hide - and that you don't need to practice online privacy - then please hand your unlocked phone to any stranger passing by to do what they want with it for 24 hours
                          --- Note: handing your unlocked phone to a stranger is likely safer than not protecting your online privacy (those companies taking your data know exactly what to do with it).

                        • Your physical safety is at risk.
                          --- Those wishing you harm are able to target you, know when you aren't home and where you will be at any point in time.

                        • While YOU may not care about your privacy - everyone you are communicating with (while not practicing privacy) is making them non-private. Every other person you touch online is impacted by your lack of safeguards.