I have been having a conversation with a friend around the importance of online privacy. Not making much headwind - and the bottom line argument is always "I am not doing anything wrong so why do I care about privacy?"

Got lost explaining why I don't/won't use any AI apps (ChatGPT/Deepseek, etal)... he thinks I'm nuts. (to me - AI is just a better way to steal my data!)

Any good articles I can reference ? Thoughts, etal?

I do speak about surveillance, free speech, identity theft, etc... but much like most things - until you've experienced something first hand those sound pretty theoretical - "Not going to happen to me"...

    lcalamar I am not doing anything wrong so why do I care about privacy?

    For when other people do things that are wrong

      The easiest way to get others to understand is to point out that you aren't doing anything wrong (hopefully) when you get laid, but in all likelihood, both people probably want that to remain private.

      • Ssecrec

        • Post #4
        • Edited

        Because in 10 years when that currently-not-wrong thing you do today is made into something "wrong", it is good to avoid being retroactively condemned for it.

        Like 10 years ago, it wasn't wrong to speak out against government, and now people are being thrown into jail for it.

        Someone who last year worked in DEI in the US is now completely unemployable.

        Further, there are places in the world where right and wrong differ from other places.

        Something you are doing is wrong.... somewhere.

        Here's an example; something deemed "not wrong" in most civilized places is punishable by DEATH in other places;
        https://247wallst.com/special-report/2019/06/12/countries-where-being-gay-is-legally-punishable-by-death/

          Regardless of moral and ethical aspect of using any app or service or (predominantly network) use of your device, you should be able to choose what others can and can not see. That said, when using any apps or services you are presented with/tricked into agreeing with various terms and conditions and agreements before using them. You should always make informed decision about data collecting practices and avoid stuff you are not comfortable to use. Why? Because you have the right to keep information private, others would not like you to see.

          If in the future you encounter a strong backer of "I have nothing to hide" philosophy, ask them to lend you their unlocked personal device for a day and ensure them you will not do anything bad with it. You won't have to ask them ever again, because they will never agree to it.

            I’ll only answer regarding one aspect.

            Solidarity: we should defend privacy for people who may need it; obviously, the best way to do so is to have privacy ourselves, so people having a dire need of it, fighting for the good of society, won’t stick out from the herd.

            No privacy means living in a panopticon.

            • Eelih

              • Post #11

              The value of privacy may not be as clearcut to some as it is to others. However, the value of protecting one's attention has become increasingly clear, and measureable, over time. Enhancing one's privacy is a good means to disrupting the positive feedback loops that are used to hijack attention. Some good sources on this are Jonathan Haidt on the anxiety epidemic, Yuval Harari and Tristan Harris on the the failure of the silicon valley business model and potential impacts of AI, and more recently journalists like Chris Hayes. The message is perhaps more direct in moments of brutal honesty straight from the benefactors of the attention economy themselves, such as: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J54k7WrbfMg
              I'm pretty sure Sean Parker and Chamath Palihapitiya value their privacy, which provides a pretty strong signal that everyone else should value privacy as well.

              Why privacy? I'd instead reason by asking "why not privacy?". The burden of proof should always be on the party wanting to infringe on your right to privacy. Companies could've moved to monetization of online services by now but there is an entire data industry that is thriving off casting the widest net possible by putting their trackers on virtually every site.

              Practically speaking there is really no telling what these companies do with the data they collect. I mean they'll never say they abuse the data or resell it but enough of us here know firsthand how shoddy some companies security practices can be. Huge data breaches happen somewhat regularly, keeping your data to yourself is a way of mitigating those risks.

              DeletedUser127 I don't like this argument because it fails to illustrate the pervasive nature of surveillance. It's one thing for my friend to ask me to hand my phone over. It's another thing for my friend to "keep tabs" on me in the background without my explicit awareness.

                fid02 I remember this article written by Bruce Schneier which I had then lost sight of, thank you, it's very topical 19 years on and will remain so for years to come.

                  lcalamar The discussion around "why should i care about online privacy" in my mind is immediately the wrong frame, the real discussion needs to start with the fundamental precep that we are all born equal, if you accept we are all born equal, then it follows we are all entitled to equal atonomy, responsibility, rights (access to resources) etc applied to privacy that means we either all have the right to know everything about everyone, or nothing about anyone... Im in the nothing about anyone camp, and every person, or entity that uses some form of power/advantage to take that right from me without consent is directly attempting to gain advantage over me though exercising control of my rights. Whether i have anything to hide has zero to do with why it is wrong. It is wrong because it is disrespecting my rights, and because i am not given the eqivalent level of transparency into those exercising the control.

                    "I have nothing to hide." Nothing becomes something overnight. Who would have thought your private (made public) views about a medication would cost you your job before 2020? Or that certain political candidate you support would result in your bank closing your accounts before 2016? Or your private religious beliefs and traditions would have you targeted by 3 letter agencies before 2023? All of this in the "freest" country on earth (allegedly). Everyone has something to hide even when they shouldn't...

                    After much review... It seems that one of the basic tenets of privacy is that while I have nothing to hide...

                    ... someone else may determine that you DO.

                    It isn't up to the person to decide they have nothing to hide because that judgement doesn't belong to them.