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  • Please make Graphene pretty, because normal people don't care about security

OP here :)

For those who wanted more clarity on what 'clean and pretty OS' means.

Customization for all of us on here who care/are willing to put in 5 seconds of effort.

For normal people, a one-click install that has an OS setup (users, apps to do the basics they all 'need' to do with their phone (otherwise they will not ever give up their terrible spyphones, even if it means just losing one of the things they've been accustomed to do) which we, as privacy and security advocates, would accept in a person we contact on our phones. That way, we the people who put in effort for security and privacy, can easily put something in the hands of our normal friends and family that they will accept. It should also look as nice and convenient and cute as Samsung's/Apples offerings, which is make or break for them, as much as that surprises us.

It doesn't have to be as good as ours, and it doesn't have to be the terrible security hole they're perfectly happy with. It just has to be something that we're satisfied they're using for now, as someone in our friends and family who we care about, and to increase security and privacy overall.

I'd just really much appreciate if the AOSP apps would use the colors (accent) specified in the system settings, as the rest of GOS does. Not more. Just getting rid of those imo terrible colors. I assume that's piece of cake for an experienced android dev, isn't it?

So no need to leave "safe harbor" by installing any 3rd party apps having access to phone, contacts, messages, etc., just keep the safe and trusty, preinstalled apps. That's a question of security and privacy too. And there's a lot of complaints around with stuff not working about those 3rd party apps as replacement, people asking for help 'cause of that. I think it would be worth thinking about that...

Secure and private does not mean, to sacrifice on everything else, to be ok with being difficult, cumbersome, ugly, etc. Secure and private can perfectly be combined with easy to use, good looking, etc. And people tend to leave "safe harbor" if the UX is bad (user experience). So the goal is not achieved.

It's not a discussion about personal preferences, but something does not have to be ugly and oldschool to be "cool" and "safe" and "special". It's safe and secure when people use it. And those "normal" and "regular" people as some name them in this thread, they're throwing away safety and security, because they're personally not ok with UX. Those "normal" people aren't being picked up, so goal missed.

    4 days later

    TRInvictus Those "normal" people aren't being picked up, so goal missed.

    Exactly.

    If the goal is to create privacy and security, we can't do it with just the 5% or less of the population willing to suffer and use minimalist, high-effort/barrier to entry and use systems.

    And with the point where GrapheneOS is right now, they could do more. They have a great OS, they've worked out a lot of the stuff.

    All they have to do is give us a version we can install quickly on our friends and family's phones for them which they will like. Normal people don't want minimalist absence of warmth and attractiveness. They want something super attractive, kitchy, shiny, cute, perfect on the eyes in terms of what they see on their screen (contrasts of words against background, weather app as the background, size of the clock, colors of the login screen). These are things I wouldn't have even considered but I recently made Graphene devices for normal people who I care about, and they still haven't adopted them (are just using them sometimes) because of these things. Super important for them is the wallpaper, the colors, etc which I mentioned. It's make or break). They want to hold their little attractive phone and get enjoyment out of it, using their apps and stuff to look at social media etc.

    But with Graphere as it is now, we (they, the Graphene team) get to chose for these normal people. We (they) can create a stock version of GrapheneOS-for-normal-people which is set up just how they would want normal people to use it, and normal people won't kick and scream or even try to change anything about this, as long as you just give them the cute attractive nice looking screen and interactions they like so much. They could package all this in one install click and have everything set up for these people, and we could get them to adopt it way easier/possible at all).

    I mean putting nothing on the Owner, making a few Users (safe apps User, unsafe apps User for junking out occasionally on the things they and we will not want to totally give up), banking User, etc. Inside the safe apps User give them a suite like Apple does with something to organize photos and videos, something to edit, something to make video compilations, something to do maps (Organic Maps or whatever), etc etc. The couple trusted messenging apps. The couple trusted email apps. ... Inside the untrusted apps, put Insta Facebook etc, but give them access to the controlled selected folders which Graphene now allows us to do, so they don't have to try to figure this out themselves and give up right away. These people do not need customization, they will accept anything you put in their hands as longs as they can still do the 10 things they really like doing and it looks nice. And most important maybe, that it is VERY easy ie no effort at all except logging in to things.

        • [deleted]

        • Post #65

        graphy00 @GrapheneOS, please don't waste any time, I know you won't, to satisfy any such requestes. All of this cam be achieved with a careful selection of third party apps. Let's not blame the project for unwillingness (or not having trust) to incorporate those in the base OS as not to deviate from their main goal by adding more attack surface but our own expectations what a secure mobile OS should look like.

            Seems like there is a big opportunity here for you to fork and maintain and do your bit for helping spread the word, allowing the developers to focus on what they are clearly focusing on, uncompromising security.

            • [deleted]

            • Post #67

            [deleted] All of this cam be achieved with a careful selection of third party apps

            [deleted] as not to deviate from their main goal by adding more attack surface

            Let's add more attack surface by silently forcing users to replace the supposedly secure, ugly defaults with less secure counterparts!

            To think that a sane request would attract that level of reddit-tier elitism is insane.

                Looks like we're getting heated here, so I'm locking the thread while writing out a comprehensive response.

                • N1b likes this.

                I have read the thread over time, which seems to have attracted a lot of discussion, with a lot of interest, and from my perspective, it seems that there are 2-3 different camps when it comes to this topic at this time. The camps are as follows:

                1. People who think GrapheneOS needs to change its default apps and add XYZ things in order to make it more "attractive" to other potential users. This camp considers this to be of great importance.

                2. People who think nothing should change, think that people who have an issue with how the default apps look or function should just DIY it and not complain.

                3. People who realize that improvements can be made to the overall looks of some of the default AOSP apps which are dated, but would rather the team prioritize security and privacy features over spending time on that aspect of the experience.

                From my perspective, there's validity to all 3 sides. As someone who's used GrapheneOS for years and have an intimate understanding of the work that goes into it, and why the priorities are what they are, here's what I think:

                Some of the default AOSP apps are awful. Most are obviously stuck in a different era when it comes to their appearence, and it shows. Most of the OS follows the latest material guidelines, and that's a stark contrast to something like the default SMS app which is the AOSP app for that which hasn't seen aesthetic improvements in years.

                Some of those AOSP apps can be "saved", and can be modified to update their appearance. They otherwise work fine. Other apps (the SMS app and Gallery app are such examples) are probably best completely replaced with something better that meets the project's requirements. Either something built from scratch, or an existing project that GrapheneOS would have to audit and test extensively before including it in the OS.

                Any such replacement app, whether built in-house or via an existing compatible open source project would need to at least have the same functionality that the current apps do. "But these apps are ancient, and they're garbage! Surely any app does better than those!", I hear you say, but you would be wrong. A lot of apps that might seem like viable replacements don't implement all of the necessary intents to become a replacement for a default app in the OS, no matter how nice it looks, or has features one might like. Great care would need to be taken to ensure that switching out the AOSP app with another one doesn't lead to a usability or functionality downgrade in these ways.

                To address camp number 2, I don't think it's correct to say that any gripes one might have with the appearence or UX of clearly outdated apps is unwarranted. Those apps can be improved. GrapheneOS has always said that it wants to improve them. That's still on the roadmap.

                That said, to address camp number 1, it goes without saying that the project has to prioritize. Those priorities have to also be adjusted as things happen in real time. I'm sure there are people in this very forum who would rather see the messaging app get a material 3 overhaul rather than the latest 3 major security features added in GrapheneOS; I truly get that. However, GrapheneOS is a project running on around 250k devices, based on recent rough estimations. Prioritization based on security and privacy features has to come before "prettification", and that doesn't necessarily have to mean that making things look nicer isn't important. It just means that at this given time, the team's resources are best allocated elsewhere.

                Then, we come to things that are entirely subjective. Things such as whether the icons for the default apps are pretty or ugly, and what kind of apps should come bundled with an OS. I personally like the icons. I understand someone else might not. I also understand someone will dislike them no matter what the color of the icons ends up being. That's the nature of things.

                When it comes to what kind of apps should come with the OS to make it suitable for "normal" people, it is incredibly subjective, and there isn't really a great model to look at either. There are phones that come with dozens of pre-installed apps, including a compass app in some cases, if you can believe it. Who's to say what should be included, and what shouldn't? Should a calendar app be included? If the answer is yes, then what kind of calendar app should it be? A purely offline one? An offline one with syncing capabilities? One tied to a specific service? In the vast majority of cases it makes sense to let people make their own choices based on what they use, rather than the OS making the choice for them.

                Perhaps in the future, there could be a vetted list of apps that could be presented in the setup wizard that one could choose to install to "simplify" the setup process for someone who wants additional apps but isn't very specific about what those apps should be. It's something to think about. Is it as vital as some people are saying here, I don't really think so. But hey, I could be wrong.

                At the end of the day, I understand where all of you are coming from, and your different perspectives are reasonable from various points of view, but I would like to ask that we keep the discussion on this thread and others civil, friendly, and productive. At the end of the day, this is literally about bundled apps and icons.

                Additionally, I would like to ask that people not present their nitpicks as a world-shattering be-all-end-all things that are needed for GrapheneOS to succeed. GrapheneOS is entering its 10th year in 2024, and the userbase has been on a steady increase for years. GrapheneOS is currently leading the charge in multiple respects when it comes to privacy and security and is helping bring some of that to the Android ecosystem as a whole. There will always be things to improve, but I would ask your patience and understanding regarding the timeline.

                  3 months later
                  20 days later

                  matchboxbananasynergy People who realize that improvements can be made to the overall looks of some of the default AOSP apps which are dated, but would rather the team prioritize security and privacy features over spending time on that aspect of the experience.

                  Without going into the type of decision making that's associated with default apps, is there a way for the more graphically competent of those people to contribute, say, colour themes ?