• General

  • Is GrapheneOS a net privacy gain over iOS in my situation?

Eagle_Owl
We (my family and I) like Session.

There was trouble with wobbly notifications early in this year, but it seems to have gone away.

    Pacienco

    I am fairly sure iPhones are not supported for 10 years but I would be fine with an example that proves otherwise?

    iPhones still offer the longest support period of any phone on the market. The iPhone 6S is still supported today with iOS15, which is still getting security fixes.

    iOS15 is somewhat special, in that it's the first version of iOS to be supported for more than a year, but nonetheless, the iPhone 6S is getting almost 8 years worth of updates. It's reasonable to think, based on past experience, that newer iPhones will be supported for longer.

    So if all you care about is cost (and you expect your phone to never need repairing), the latest iPhone SE is a very cost-effective purchase, because total cost of ownership will continue to go down over the years. If you hold the phone for 6-7 years, you get slightly more bang for your buck than the Google Pixel, assuming you don't buy on sale. But it's still very close. And you also have to take into account total battery capacity degradation over time. iPhone battery replacements are expensive.

      Renewably3997 I don't like the fact that I'd be utilizing SMS so much more than I do now but I really have no idea what sort of data Apple is sending to themselves every few minutes and it bothers me that the iPhone is constantly communicating with Apple even when I'm not using it.

      GrapheneOS:
      you control what is sent over sms
      you control what apps/services can access
      no background communication from the OS

      Ios:
      iMessage is private from certain parties
      limited control over what apps/services can access
      full background communication from the OS

      i would posit that as long as you take the necessary measures when communicating over sms, you have much more control which enables much better privacy with GrapheneOS. I am a former iphone user, am completely happy with GrapheneOS and encourage you to take the step if you feel you would benefit.

      Good luck on you privacy journey!

        Renewably3997

        There are a LOT of reason to move away from apple. Cost is a one. freedom from the walled garden and app choice is another.

        In regards to iMessage I would say, do your text messages contain that much private data? Is iMessages really protecting you that much? Is iMessage not subject to government hand over? (I ask cuz I actually dont know this one.)
        Remember, even if you protect your messages on your end, the other person can always compromise your conversations simply by sending it to the cloud or other giving other apps access to their messages. I'm not familiar with the privacy of apple iMessages so I can't say.

        But I personally absolutely hate being milked for money by any company specially by apple. Pay a lot of money and then be locked in their app dystopia.

        I'm not going anywhere specific with this rant. Its a hard choice friend.

        Perhaps having iMessage protect all your conversations might be significant enough for you to stay. Only you'd know that cause we don't know the content of your conversations and the prevalence of your usage.

        Remember that by not having an apple phone or a phone that runs google play you are helping the privacy of the world and not just yourself. These phones spy on everyone around you as well through their wifi and bluetooth spyware.

            Renewably3997

            Just one addition about iMessage and its „Security”:
            Your conversations with others is only save and private, as long no one uses iCloud for backups!
            Because Apple adds your private key for iMessage to every iCloud backup!
            Remember: Apple has the keys – so it's not really end-to-end-encryption. ;-)

            If the authorities ask Apple for the key, they get it and can read everything (!).
            From time to time, the transport encryption to iCloud is so lousy that someone with the appropriate knowledge/skills can break the encryption without Apple's key and help themselves.
            If a customer then has unencrypted backups in iCloud, everything is completely unprotected.

            Note: you have no control over that from your side ...

            • de0u replied to this.

                Eagle_Owl From time to time, the transport encryption to iCloud is so lousy that someone with the appropriate knowledge/skills can break the encryption without Apple's key and help themselves.

                An assertion like this might benefit from a link to an outside source with details.

                    User2288 Is iMessages really protecting you that much? Is iMessage not subject to government hand over? (I ask cuz I actually dont know this one.)

                    "Limited" access to messages. It would honestly depend on your setup and it mainly boils down to the user backing up data on iCloud, primarily their messages. When I use iMessage I do not back up to iCloud.

                    See the leaked FBI document in this article about data they can access per app: https://www.androidauthority.com/fbi-document-messaging-apps-3069511/

                      A note about encryption in iCloud—enabling Advanced Data Protection will enable end-to-end encryption for iMessage: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303#notes

                      7. Messages in iCloud
                      a. Standard data protection: Messages in iCloud is end-to-end encrypted when iCloud Backup is disabled. When iCloud Backup is enabled, your backup includes a copy of the Messages in iCloud encryption key to help you recover your data. If you turn off iCloud Backup, a new key is generated on your device to protect future Messages in iCloud. This key is end-to-end encrypted between your devices and isnʼt stored by Apple.
                      b. Advanced Data Protection: Messages in iCloud is always end-to-end encrypted. When iCloud Backup is enabled, everything inside it is end-to-end encrypted, including the Messages in iCloud encryption key.

                      Here's a breakdown of the type of encryption used in iCloud for every class of data: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303#advanced

                      5 days later

                      I've used apple mobile and Mac since iPhone 4, (my Mac has a cd drive in the monitor, just to age it for you)
                      I've recently moved to android this past 2 months with Graphene on a pixel 6 using the web installer. I'm interested and capable of PC use and basic understanding, but not a techie by any means.
                      Apart from the recent Aurora store issue, being able to connect the phone to a PC and just use it as such, as mention transparently, is great.
                      No more itunes, icloud BS.
                      Like others, getting over a decade of files and pictures out of apples grips has been painfully bananas.

                      In terms of your messaging, I've just recently through this thread realized Graphene doesn't support MMS? Am I to be corrected on this?
                      I was wondering why I could not send video getting the "attachment limit reached" message.
                      Other than that I have found no difference in messaging. Once Graphene was installed and put my Sim card in, me or everyone I contact hasn't had to do anything different to communicate through text.

                      I did convince my family and a couple of friends to go to signal when I tried a different privacy phone/OS and I couldn't even get consistent texting to work, so now I send any video to my family using signal. Why that works on Graphene, I don't know as I am not techie enough to understand.

                      The freedom you gain however knowing Apple is not privy to your every location, and probably listening to you and using their Bluetooth mesh network to keep track of everyone around you, is quite liberating.
                      I brought both phones with me for a while in case I needed access to any work files/contacts I forgot to transfer over, but I'm now apple free.
                      And it's beautiful.

                        Someguyuphere
                        I want to be apple free too, but I do not know how to do it!
                        I have a life time of photos, like 20k+ in the MacOS photo app (this is the primary issue for not leaving MacOS to be honest)…. And my iPhone, all these WhatsApp groups lol

                            [deleted] Can't you backup your Whatsapp data to Google Drive and transfer it to GrapheneOS? Or is the backup functionality for Whatsapp Android exclusive?

                                [deleted]

                                As matchboxbanana has hinted at you would be much better off using it on GOS. You can lock it down much better compared to stock and now with the great new addition (contact scopes) its even better as you dont need to share all your contacts for it to function properly. Apart from the who messaged who metadata and phone number they would have very little data compared to stock.

                                As for your Apple dilemma you could get a Proton account and use Proton drive to store everything. Might be a bit time consuming (like all privacy efforts are) but changing over is simple.

                                    Depends on what you looking for.
                                    SMS while not encrypted is not directly visible to Big Tech nor Big State. Big State requires a court order to access SMS, Call Logs, Wiretapping, cell network information on your imei, etc. There is no way around this court order level of surveillance, if Big State deems necessary. Of course your Cell provider has all of this data, but they operate fundamentally differently than Big Tech (Goog, AWS, Apple, Meta).
                                    Big Tech platforms (including Apple) sell your information to Big State (US, China/CCP, Walmart, Amazon,...) - literally anyone that will buy it with the caveat that it's "anonymized". Do note that Big State (city, county, state, federal) IS purchasing Big Tech platform information on us. Are they tracking you specifically? No but they can mine the data now or sometime in the far distant future if they so choose, all WITHOUT a court order since you Opted-In. This data can then be statistically narrowed down to "un-anonymize" you specifically. How many people live in your neighborhood, sleep at your address, travel consistently with your wife's phone, visit your parents neighborhood, .AND. spend working hours at your workplace?

                                    With GrapheneOS and unconnected FOSS apps, the Big Tech platforms never have your data to begin with.

                                      Renewably3997 It depends ultimately on what your biggest priorities are in terms of privacy and security.

                                      If you move to Graphene and can't persuade people to use something that's E2E encrypted then your messaging is going to be less secure, because it will default to SMS. There's not much you can do about that. iMessage is E2E encrypted, and, if you enable Advanced Data Protection in iCloud, the backups are also encrypted. If message security is the most important thing to you, and you can't get people to move to Signal, you will be better off staying on iOS.

                                      HOWEVER... if you are more concerned with device security and privacy than just messaging, Graphene is a better option. To caveat this, Apple has done a lot of good work in this area. iOS is generally more secure than stock Android, and, thanks to features like App Tracking Transparency, more private - except, of course, to Apple itself. But Graphene is, in my opinion, more secure and more focused on privacy.

                                        Aaron Just a word of caution on this: I don't know which country the OP is in, but it's not true that every jurisdiction requires a court order to access much of that information, particularly metadata rather than the content of SMS's. Until the Supreme Court ruling in Carpenter vs US in 2018, law enforcement could -- and did -- access that data without a court order. As another example, in Ireland there was a law in 2011 which gave police access to any phone metadata without a warrant, something which was only ruled illegal last year. So do be careful saying the state requires court orders, because even in democratic countries that's not always true!