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AlanZ Couldn't agree more.
AlanZ Couldn't agree more.
Telegram while not providing E2EE by default, provided the most robust and trustworthy platform. Durov's history showed that he will stand up for his users, and also reduce unjust censorship.
matchboxbananasynergy Yes, but as I stated in some of my posts, France's complaint isn't fully understood What are their true intentions? Let me remind people that there is a war going on, and both sides are accusing the other, again of misinformation. It's the west who is crying foul the most, even while the main stream media is the biggest source of misinformation. I will also point to the fact that we have seen this before. Just recently Zuckerberg confirmed in a letter that he was pressured to censor information about covid that actually turned out to be true! Also, another suspicious action, is why did they spontaneously arrest Durov? If there was an ongoing investigation on him, and they determined that they needed to arrest him, why wasn't the warrant issued already??? Instead, they arrest him when he arrives in France by surprise. This does not pass the smell test. Having a hard time believing what we are being told exactly is true.
Governments like to control narratives, especially at war time, and sm platforms like telegram, fb, tiktok, x, etc, throw a wrench in that, and they like it none. Hence the committees that had been formed by DHS to combat this, which for now have been decommissioned. Europe has the DSA (Digital Services Act). There is also a law floating around in the EU ( not sure of current status) That if passed, will have major consequences for privacy. It basically gives them back door access to all of your devices including iot. Similar bills have circulated around in the past in the U.S. SO there is definitely cause for concern, and government should certainly be scrutinized by the public.
Just to set the record straight regarding the official explanation, here’s the gist of the prosecutor’s press release (August 28):
Against Durov:
— Complicity in the administration of an online platform to enable an illicit transaction, in an organised band;
— Refusal to communicate, at the request of authorised authorities, the information or documents necessary to the execution and the exploitation of the interceptions authorised by the law;
— Complicity in making available, without a legitimate reason, a programme or data designed to harm an automated data processing system, in diffusion of pedopornographic images in an organised band, in drug trafficking, fraud in organised band, in a criminal conspiracy to commit crimes or offences;
— Laundering of crimes or offences in an organised band;
— Provision of cryptology services to ensure confidentiality without declaration of conformity;
— Supply and import of a cryptology means that does not exclusively perform authentication or integrity control functions without prior declaration.
Preliminary investigation began in February 2024.
Coincidentally, also in February 2024, 10 persons were brought to court for selling teenagers’ sex tapes on Telegram.
Source: https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/75/communiques-de-presse-1
Telegram has to refuse certain requests and we mustn't forget that everything happens under the Western prism, which means that we end up with telegram channels blocked in France. France and the EU censor pro-Russian content but not pro-EU or pro-US content, they accuse Hamas of being a terrorist group whereas for others it's more of a resistance group, they also censored anti-Covid vaccine content at the time.
Telegram also needs to be moderated to combat paedocriminality, harassment, etc.
leafnose Why does France have jurisdiction to charge Durov? If they don't like the content, they could take steps to curve its use in France, by having it removed from app stores, and taking other measures. Imagine if every country in the world charged him with this. I just don't see how they have any jurisdiction for any of it.
Telegram had already stepped up its moderation for anyone who follows. Indecent content is increasingly being blocked. It's easier said than done. My biggest concern is that there are other motives for this, including not liking the coverage allowed from Russia about the Ukraine war which conflicts with the west's narrative. A war which by the way Ukraine is clearly loosing, and western feathers are being severely ruffled over it.
Let me also mention that when Russia had a problem years back with Durov, and he had to leave the country. He was a beacon of democracy in the eyes of the west. He was a figher of tyranny, dictatorship, communism etc.... No this just stinks total B.S. again, I am for censorship of indecent content in public channels, but there is more to this than just that.
Anyone who cares about some form of free speech shouldn't use Telegram because it was never designed to protect it, think of Telegram as a Discord with very lax moderation.
If you're a public platform moderator and you refuse to comply with a request from the authorities (for whatever reason) because you know that user data is accessible, you're asking for trouble.
As another example, users on a public forum shouldn't be surprised if their malicious posts can be used by indexing robots or used against them in an ongoing investigation.
Once again we have proof of the fact that we are only allowed to exist ""freely" while it does not displease the government (usually american), and the security agencies / corporate dictatorships that run them. Those in the hot seat of any country, of any political party, are merely puppets.
Good examples are Hussain and Khomeini who were welcomed by the West, and had beneficial plans regarding the freedoms and lifestyles of their citizens. Until they refused to sell oil at a discounted rate to the US. Assange was permitted to disclose secrets of any government in the world, but the moment he showed the US security services to be corrupt, unproven sexual assault charges and international warrants popped into existence.
It is invariably our own governing bodies that are our worst enemies, and they are financed and powered by those with something to gain. Such individuals will push the line of "nothing to hide, nothing to fear", but will go out of their way to obstruct and obfuscate, any (mis)information that is made public of their personal affairs.
Follow the money. Who really benefits from the nationalisation and capitulation of Telegram and similar?
I'm sadly seeing a lot of the sentiment trend towards what was mentioned here:
https://x.com/matthew_d_green/status/1828205281945256332
It feels like people are quick to jump on something if it aligned with their existing political beliefs and morph said issue to fit their political reality rather than looking at things in a more detached, objective manner. That's of course easier said than done.
Eirikr70 France is a hypocritical government, like every government in the world, but more specifically in our country. Not everyone knows it, but France has passed laws against the protection of our journalists.
Freedom only makes sense if you think like the State. If France declares Hamas a terrorist group, that's the way it is, whereas for me it's clearly a resistance group, for example.
Eirikr70 What offences did he commit in France? Furthermore, and I repeat, what I stated above, that "why did they spontaneously arrest Durov? If there was an ongoing investigation on him, and they determined that they needed to arrest him, why wasn't the warrant issued already??? Instead, they arrest him when he arrives in France by surprise. His country of residency has an extradition treaty with France, so France could have presented their case and issued a warrant which Dubai likely would have to reviews and validate its merit.
By your logic, CEOs of other companies can be arrested for crimes that they did not directly commit, however that were facilitated by their infrastructure, such as an app like signal.
[deleted] Telegram while not providing E2EE by default, provided the most robust and trustworthy platform. Durov's history showed that he will stand up for his users
Could you elaborate your view here? I am trying to understand this point of view, because I have quite opposite one.
From my perspective there is nothing robust, or even trustworthy on Telegram, when I compare it to Signal. Telegram set bad defaults, do not encrypt data, therefore they can manipulate with the data as they will. They could at least encrypt communication, but they chose not to. What exactly is robust and trustworthy about it? Am I missing something crucial here?
As for the second part that Durov would stand up for his users: Would you say that a person who is trying to collect as much data from you as he can, and that he can do anything with your data, and that even though this person could easily shield your personal communication with encryption, he made a choice not to use the encryption, that this person has Your interest in heart?
matchboxbananasynergy I actually agree with what he says in the tweet. However, I'll point out, that it has nothing to do with his arrest. That issue can be argued separately. However, if we recall, many years ago, when Durov was facing arrest and had to leave Russia, The west considered him a hero. He was a beacon of democracy, fighting for freedom. Does anyone remember? There was way more offensive content then than there is now.
Moisture By robust i meant that its coded well and its a stable app. Channels wont shit temeselves unlike on matrix, and media file delivery works without issues unlike with Signal which often fails to play videos and has very lacking file type support. Telegram also has a very generous file size limit. From a usability standpoint nothing even came close. Its the most pleasant messenger to use.
Would you say that a person who is trying to collect as much data from you as he can
He is not "trying" to do that, and you're misrepresenting him as a person. Telegram has no interest in data mining users, because they don't profit from it. Durov's values contradict the conspiracy that he hasn't implemented E2EE for the purpose of harming users.
Moisture
Telegram never said its E2EE. They claim its "secure" on the same basis as every other company that has server side storage of user data. Not being E2E encrypted doesn't mean its not "secure", it means it works fundamentally differently than Signal for example. You have to be OK with that when you choose to sign up for any service. I'd use Telegram over Whatsapp despite Whatsapp being E2EE, because ethics are decided by company practices and not technicalities (that being said e2ee is still important to take power away from the provider). Telegram is a highly ethical service that bleeds money.
Moisture Of course!
[deleted] Channels wont shit temeselves unlike on matrix
Can't really compare a service that utilises a centralised server against a protocol that allows decentralised, cross-server communication between self-hosted instances, but ok.
media file delivery works without issues unlike with Signal which often fails to play videos and has very lacking file type support.
Probably something to do with Signal being actually E2EE (by default) and not Telegram, but people are free to correct me if this is caused/related to something else.
Telegram also has a very generous file size limit
I'm sure that has nothing to do with potential data collection whatsoever.
Telegram has no interest in data mining users, because they don't profit from it
Maybe, maybe not. They apparently do profit however from "Sponsored Messages", which is strange because any time I hear other organisations do similar ad-related things, it causes an uproar and accusations of data collection.