• General

  • Is buying a Pixel 8 a wise move for privacy ?

I can't speak to the impact on privacy, but the bulk of Google's AI features are implemented within the software, with the hardware helping accelerate those operations: With GrapheneOS installed, the 'AI' features that Google talks about will not be present by default.

The hardware that Google refers to when talking about the Pixel's machine learning / AI capabilities is the TPU (Tensor Processing Unit) hardware accelerators. Any app can communicate with it by way of the Neural Networks API to accelerate their operations, and it's properly isolated + respects app sandboxing. However, some Google apps access it directly in order to provide more acceleration. This doesn't provide any extra data to the apps, but it does add a bit of extra attack surface, so GrapheneOS has added a toggle to disable Google apps from directly accessing the TPU/GXP to reduce attack surface. With the direct access toggled off, operations that would normally make use of the TPU/GXP will be slower, i.e. Google Camera post-processing, Google Photos 'machine learning' related features, etc. This toggle would likely make its way to the Pixel 8 if/when supported, also.

All this talk about AI, machine learning, sending videos and other data to google servers for processing, overall made me nervous and I'm now not sure if I should take the plunge.

Where did you hear that Google would be sent your photos and videos for processing?

Would I be paying a lot of money for Pixel 8 features that I can't use with G.OS?

Any Google apps containing their respective 'AI' features can be installed on GrapheneOS if you so choose.

    Lizard
    My first reply had the wrong link, so i had to repost.
    The correct link:
    https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/7696-grapheneos-owner-profile-or-pixel-stock/11

    I think this post answers a large portion of your question.

    The difference between using GOS as compared to a regular phone is MASSIVE for privacy. As a newbe i didn't understand all the benefits at the time, but over time i realised what big difference it is, technologically.

    Some special features of the pixel don't work, but some of them do!
    Specially the camera capabilities and some of the speech to text capabilities work.

    I think the losses are:

    • call screening
    • background music detection
    • google assistant
    • android auto
    • chromecast

    The privacy benefits are massive an VERY thorough, and the loss of niceties is a tradeoff. Whether its an "valued" trade off or not for you depends on your priorities.

      I've just been reading up. Sounds like I need to do more research on G.OS in general in order to make an informed decision on the benefits and drawbacks for my case so I will be doing that over the coming weeks.

      In general though I don't really use that much on my P3. WhatsApp, Banking, Gmail, Photos, Bitwarden, Authy, Evernote, The odd game or two, A few other apps that I occasionally use, and a significant number that I never use and probably should have already uninstalled! Oh and I do use the call screening, but none of the other things you mentioned.

      I'm more inclined to go without than to jeapordise my privacy (paranoid I guess) even though I'm probably already massively exposed hence why I thought about giving G.OS a whirl.

      Anyways, I'll get started on reading all the info, and go from there. No rush to buy a new phone just yet (although I had it in my head I was gonna splurge on the P8 when it arrived). I'm still keen to know though, can I stick with my P3? or buy a cheaper older Pixel? I can afford a P8, but don't want to shell out if it doesn't make much sense and could get the same functionality with G.OS for less (or zero) cost.

        Also about the money you are investing, you should think of it as not an investment in a regular phone (pixel in this case).

        Instead see it as the cost of buying a privacy phone. And there simply are extremely few privacy phone options, with the minimum start cost a bit high, and the pixel with gos is the most complete and premium option (in terms of privacy, features, and capabilities).

        The extra cost you pay on a pixel 8 model as compared to a 7a or a 6a is for better hardware and warranty update support period. That's your personal choice should you prefer an 8 over a 6a or 7a.

        Generally at this time choosing the privacy route means swallowing the bitter pill of not having certain niceties and conveniences offered in regular phones. However i must say I have been astounded by how amazingly close gos capabilities are to a regular high end phone. I never expected the compromise to be this small. Other options are pretty atrocious comparatively.

          cyberparty Where did you hear that Google would be sent your photos and videos for processing?

          My understanding from the event today was that a lot of the new features they were talking about involved interacting with Googles "super computers". I may have misinterpreted that though?

              Lizard I'm still keen to know though, can I stick with my P3?

              I think gos has stopped its support and updates for the p3 and installer link may not be available. However you could possibly find the last installer and install it.

              The phone wont get any updates and could be infiltrated if you are directly attacked by a sophisticated entity, but it would still retain most of the privacy benefits and would probably still be a better option than having the default os on it if you want to continue using it.

                To be honest I think I'm due an upgrade! I'm just asking the questions upfront to work out what makes the most sense for G.OS. By the sounds of it I'll probably shoot for the P8 as I think my original concerns that I had are N/A once you install G.OS. It sounds like it's more of an issue about compatibility and inconveniences, rather than privacy and security.

                User2288 better hardware and warranty update support period.

                Regarding the 7 years of updates, Is that Android specifically? i.e irrelevant if using G.OS?

                    Lizard They were referring to the 'AI' approach that the company is taking being benefitted from hardware across Google, with the AI models from Google DeepMind - their subsidiary AI research lab - being ran on datacenters utilising their own Tensor processors. They didn't say anywhere that photos or videos would be submitted to them.

                        cyberparty to be fair, I can see where lizard is coming from
                        I too thought that alot of the AI features relied on the data centres.

                        I also think that the "video boost" feature sends the videos to the data centre to be processed and then notifies you when it's done

                            L8437 I missed out on that part, it seems in that case you would submit it to be processed in their data centers, but it would require you to choose the Video Boost feature yourself and wouldn't upload videos not recorded in that fashion.

                              dln949 Settings -> Apps -> Special app access -> Special access to hardware accelerators for Google apps

                                Lizard I'm just asking the questions upfront to work out what makes the most sense

                                No problem mate, ask away.

                                Lizard Regarding the 7 years of updates, Is that Android specifically?

                                Yes these updates are available on the default pixel. GOS also ships all these updates to GOS as well as offering some limited extended security updates as well (not sure on this, maybe @matchboxbananasynergy can confirm?).

                                    The Pixel 8 and Pixel 8 Pro will be receiving 7 years of OS and security updates. That official support is critical to GrapheneOS support, as without OEM support, nobody can ship complete security patches.

                                    With this latest generation, Google is providing a phone that essentially gets the longest proper (read: full security patches, not incomplete or severely delayed) support for Android, rivaling that of the iPhone. I would go as far as to say that Google is outdoing Apple as well, because Apple does not commit to a date. They typically support devices for a long time, but there is never a guarantee like with Google here.

                                    All this to say, it is extremely important to consider what the OEM support looks like and how much longer it is on for. A device past its EOL date is no longer secure. GrapheneOS does provide extended support releases for a while, but this is purely a harm reduction method and people are meant to swiftly transition to a supported device ASAP, as nobody can provide full security updates after that point (anyone claiming to do so is misleading their users).

                                    Lizard I currently still have the pixel 3 that I bought back in 2013 I think. Still solid, but no security patches. Could I use this with G.OS?

                                    You officially shouldn't put any private data on it. Then it's unclear what the value would be of installing GrapheneOS.

                                    If not, would it make more sense to buy a cheaper older Pixel model (i.e 5/6/7) for this purpose?

                                    See https://endoflife.date/pixel

                                      • [deleted]

                                      • Post #24

                                      I've been thinking about this and honestly, apart from the seven years of support, which is great... I can't see any reasons to get this phone for GrapheneOS. The Pixel 7 is already quite perfect.

                                      This Pixel 8 is more than ever software dependent. Most of the things that make it special are software based and things you will likely not get on Graphene.

                                      There might be one other thing, and that's the Pixel 8's size. It's a smaller phone than the 7. But that's about it.

                                        • [deleted]

                                        • Post #25
                                        • Edited

                                        [deleted] I can't see any reasons to get this phone for GrapheneOS.

                                        The Pixel 8 has Arm Memory Tagging Extensions (MTE) which turns many memory safety exploit attempts into crashes instead of compromise with a high probability. It's a reason for at-risk people to get the 8.

                                        https://source.android.com/docs/security/test/memory-safety/arm-mte

                                        https://www.xda-developers.com/android-14-advanced-memory-protection/

                                            [deleted]

                                            Thanks for the MTE info !! Very, very nice security feature.
                                            Just watched a YT vid & I didn’t realize even when an iPhone is turned off your possibly broadcasting for those AirTags they have.
                                            Plan on getting rid of my XR for the Pixel 8, hopefully Pro. Would like the extra RAM since everything is sandboxed. The Tensor 3 is also an upgrade from the 7’s Tensor 2 from a year ago ( why they didn’t wait & put Tensor 3 in Pixel Tablet is beyond me, since only released 3 months ago ).
                                            Pixel 8 Pro Has 3 more cores and better graphics.
                                            The camera and video, especially in the Pro get a big boost. The Pixel 7 already did very, very well world wide in tests. Since iPhone 15 Pro & (?) came out Pixel 7 & Pro dropped some but Pixel 7 Pro still rated #7.
                                            Can’t imagine what Pixel 8 Pro camera will be rated at.
                                            https://www.dxomark.com/smartphones/
                                            ( can change to a spreadsheet format )
                                            Just waiting for a good trade in deal. Passing on that BestBuy iPhone XR & free Pixel 2 WiFi watch one though ( don’t want that watch & don’t want hassle of selling it for $200 to offset price ).