DirtyDan Lastly, this may sound dark, but I have a thing about not wanting to be on lists.

Not dark at all - very very valid point. And it applies to ANY list even the only-annoying marketing lists. The more dangerous lists are the historical ones you mentioned. Currently governments (and yes - the U.S. is one of the worst for this) - are tracking who is protesting, what, where and when...

  • HMC likes this.

    Lots of great advice and tips here... the recommended videos were excellent and helpful. I've pretty much narrowed down the main issues to:

    • While you don't feel you are doing anything wrong - by not being private you are allowing others to determine that you ARE doing something wrong and respond accordingly

    • Everything you see online is being forced upon you based on your online history.
      --- You have lost any semblance of information 'freedom', as well as any ability to make informed non-biased and factual decisions
      --- The price you pay for goods and services are adjusted (not in a good way)

    • Being private online is not about hiding secrets; it's about maintaining control over your digital presence and protecting yourself from potential risks associated with sharing sensitive information in a public space
      --- If you believe you have nothing to hide - and that you don't need to practice online privacy - then please hand your unlocked phone to any stranger passing by to do what they want with it for 24 hours
      --- Note: handing your unlocked phone to a stranger is likely safer than not protecting your online privacy (those companies taking your data know exactly what to do with it).

    • Your physical safety is at risk.
      --- Those wishing you harm are able to target you, know when you aren't home and where you will be at any point in time.

    • While YOU may not care about your privacy - everyone you are communicating with (while not practicing privacy) is making them non-private. Every other person you touch online is impacted by your lack of safeguards.

      lcalamar "I am not doing anything wrong so why do I care about privacy?"

      In our hyper bureaucratic systems, chances are pretty high we're doing something wrong every other day.

      We still send, including the government, closed envelope letters in the mail and it's a crime to violate others' correspondence. Why should it be any different in the digital place?

      Just look at the AI limitations the EU just put in place (with some law enforcement exceptions of course) to get a picture of what is possible with AI right now. How people actually use it in the foreground, to ask random questions, is not really an issue when using private alternatives, so I wouldn't say people shouldn't use the tools that make life easier on the surface. People value convenience very highly, and as we know we always sacrifice convenience for privacy.. it's a tough sell.

          lcalamar Lots more detail could go into any one of these points - but if I'm missing any major points then please add on!

          I've editted the list be copying it into this reply as I am not able to edit that list any other way now... :(

          • While you don't feel you are doing anything wrong - by not being private you are allowing others to determine that you ARE doing something wrong and respond accordingly
            --- The word "Wrong' is arbitrary whereas it can be redefined based on intent.
            ----- and you have lost the ability to 'make your case' as it has been made without you.

          • Your 'profile' can and will be used to target you.
            --- Something that seems harmless today may not be so harmless in the future. Things like your medical history, political leanings, work history, religious beliefs, purchase history, travel, etc... The reality is all of this data is available to make decisions on how to treat you.

          • Everything you see online is being forced upon you based on your online history.
            --- You have lost any semblance of information 'freedom', as well as any ability to make informed non-biased and factual decisions
            --- The price you pay for goods and services are adjusted (not in a good way)

          • Being private online is not about hiding secrets; it's about maintaining control over your digital presence and protecting yourself from potential risks associated with sharing sensitive information in a public space
            --- If you believe you have nothing to hide - and that you don't need to practice online privacy - then please hand your unlocked phone to any stranger passing by to do what they want with it for 24 hours
            --- Note: handing your unlocked phone to a stranger is likely safer than not protecting your online privacy (those companies taking your data know exactly what to do with it).

          • Your physical safety is at risk.
            --- Those wishing you harm are able to target you, know when you aren't home and where you will be at any point in time.

          • While YOU may not care about your privacy - everyone you are communicating with (while not practicing privacy) is making them non-private. Every other person you touch online is impacted by your lack of safeguards.

            ceramics One thing about AI I can't make an informed decision about is... If AI is using online content (legal or not) to 'learn' isn't it learning the same biases and non-factual information that the internet is mostly made of?

                Law enforcement scares me the most.

                "We have to look at everyone's texts, in order to make sure they aren't committing a crime." coupled with "All you have to do is prove your innocence, and you can be on your way."

                lcalamar Idk, they probably program some heavy curation into it. But yeah as they say "garbage in, garbage out".

                    Did you know that average driver breakes the law 96 times a year without even realizing it and not getting punished for it. But they want to get hold of your data even if you do nothing wrong. It's time you do something about it. Get in control. For your own good.

                    The thing is most of us on here know probably most things about privacy and why its important. The difficult thing is relaying that over to someone who is, to be frank about it "absolutely clueless"

                    I often lend friends computer magazines etc which tend to have privacy tips/advice and at least that way its coming from somewhere neutral. I think it would be beneficial to list on here the best Youtube videos for the complete novice.

                      Shanoa Zuboff "Surveillance Capitalism" is an eye-opener. If someone is not interested is privacy in the digital age, they will most likely not read that, but it does speak about so much more: Social structures, global economy, how we arrived at this point in time with such a vast amount of data being created everyday.

                      I gave up on trying to "convert" people or force them to take the matter seriously. If they aren't interested and open to new perspectives, it's a lost cause. I don't want to feel like a vegan trying to bring people to stop eating meat, but if anyone is using some personal data of mine in a dumb way, I will tell them and try to be polite in doing so, always giving a short explanation of what I mean.

                        • BByku

                          • Post #46

                          Lot's of great pro privacy arguments in this thread. Sadly, from experience, promoting privacy friendly solutions is like throwing pearls before swines. Your average normie does not even have or is interrested in having knowledge to understand how he is being tracked. A person was genuinely shocked when seeing me click deny all consent on the website with comment like "Won't it stop working properly now?". I've heard argument against DuckDuckGo that was "Lol, what a silly name, just use Google like everyone does". And that is from someone I considered otherwise intelligent. This is the level of awareness we're dealing with. People are uninterrested and most will double down at the slightest moment of inconvenience. FWIW I forcefully installed Signal on the phones of my close ones and that is as much I could do regarding people that are closest to me. They still reflexively default to WA if its them trying to contact me. Rant off.

                          Instead of trying to convince people to care about their privacy, I recently changed tactics. You see, to the majority of people online privacy gives them no value, therefore you have to give them something that does give them value.
                          In this case, the ability to to watch YouTube with no ads. After showing them how to install Brave, the joy on their faces when they watch their first ad free video is noticeable. Of course, that's after they have gotten past the "trauma" of having to do something as simple as installing a different browser :)

                          • Eelih

                            • Post #49

                            umbrin688

                            Zuboff made a name for herself in the 1990s by correctly predicting the future impact of the internet (in 1988). Her book on Surveillance Capitalism (a term that she coined) promises to do the same by providing the first definitive look under the hood of the Google business model. The logic she explores has made its way into every sector of the economy and is inherently anti-privacy. Anyone who wants to understand "why privacy" should put in the effort to understand her contributions, especially the idea of instrumentarian power and why it's more of a concern going forward than totalitarian power. Her takes on Persuasive Technology (BJ Fogg), Nudging (Thaler & Sunstein), and Social Physics (Pentland) and how these ideas are reorganizing societies in more authoritarian directions are very insightful. This is happening top-down in China and bottom up in the US (thru huge "markets in behavioral futures"). A good followup read is "Technofeudalism" by Yanis Varoufakis.

                            I'm pretty sure Zuboff would heap praise the GrapheneOS project. She is very hopeful about the future, largely because of community driven projects like this one, which act in opposition to Big Tech's drive to impose machine logic on the rest of us.

                              DeletedUser127
                              Well written.

                              Just because they have been told they can't do that, doesn't mean that they stop.

                                elih "why privacy" matters and why it it may not be sufficient.

                                Huge point made here.

                                It is valid to assume that no matter what steps anyone does to 'stay private', the best you can do is turn down the flow of information a bit. It is likely impossible to stop it completely other than never going online.

                                I took a partial step towards going 'offline' when I purchased and used a LightPhone for a couple years. since all I did was use it for calls and texting (yes,fully understand even THAT isn't secure)... there wasn't much online data being 'stolen'. I turned down the firehose to a dribble.

                                However, over time, the effort to use that device just became too much for the benefits I gained.

                                Using GOS and privacy based browsers as well as other 'privacy' recommendations - I can tell that my efforts, while not completely for naught, have just slowed things down a bit. :(

                                For now - it is a balancing act - at best.

                                  umbrin688 Yeah - can't 'convert' people.

                                  At this point I am trying to explain to friends/family/peers the reasons privacy is important to me. That's about the best anyone can do!