There are many threads discussing the topics of anonymity as it pertains to cellular service (triangulation, legacy attack vectors, carrier eavesdropping, etc.). So I was surprised to learn about existence of this option as it has potential to alleviate/diminish some of these concerns... I wanted to share this with the community.
An anonymous (absolutely no KYC, not even an email) cell service. Could be activated via TOR and can only be paid for with Bitcoin/Monero.

https://silent.link

Tip of a hat to Watchman Privacy Podcast (generally excellent podcast) who discussed it in his latest episode. Note that the podcast interview is much more informative than SL's website. Specifically a no-nonsense explanation about why it is an inbound service.

No affiliation. Any thoughts, heads-ups or possible experiences would be appreciated for those who might be interested.

[deleted]

For sure, quite agree with you. Ideally, forsake all technology entirely and move to a wood cabin by the lake.
But people get phones to do phone things. And if you must...

  • [deleted]

treequell

Thanks for the link - I read it a year ago but re-reading now made some points become more clear.

"Anonymous" is, admittedly, a misnomer (everyrhing is). Perhaps, 'yet-another-layer-of-separation' could be more apt description. But a mouthful.

It's - potentially, if true - something to add on top of what GOS offers (or, rather, something to allay a concern that is outside of GOS' scope or ability to control).

I'm not saying it's an ultimate solution. It could be a honeypot, for all I know.

But they do make some statements that appear to be of benefit to those wishing to be a bit less visible. Like the fact that you're always in roaming mode, just some "person" from, say, Poland. (Again, no KYC, no ID, no IP, no email, no traceble transactions).

I also should reiterate that SL's website is more confusing than helpful at a first glance. The podcast interview clarifies many questions.

What's the advantage of using silent link, rather than using a VoiP provider like jmp.chat?

At least with VoiP, you don't identify your device to the network with your IMEI. With a SIM card, you identify your device to your carrier through the IMEI. With eSIM you also identify yourself to Google's servers.

    • [deleted]

    treequell Excellent point that is almost never brought up. Happy JMP customer here. Great service.

    • [deleted]

    • Edited

    treequell
    I don't have experience with JMP. Doesn't it require data? (It looks like they plan to offer if in the future via both SIM and eSIM, which would raise the very same issues with IMEI). https://jmp.chat/sim

    So if one wants to use a phone as a typical user, i.e. not strictly on WiFi, then a cellular data would need to be available.

    My point is - and I'm beginning to sound like a shill for SL, which I'm not, just trying to clarify - that data could be obtained via privacy-oriented option, SL, precisely so one could use JMP, Session, Jitsi or any other over-IP service.

    SL specifically disallows outbound calls/SMS and offers data-only plans to encourage people to solely use those (non-legacy) comms. In fact, they even strongly discourage inbound legacy comms (SMS/calls) as unsafe (allowed basically for 2FA purposes when those couldn't be avoided).

    Again, podcast was quite informative.

    But, generally, it's great that there is a service such JMP. But what if it has limitations (looks like it may not be available in Europe)? Aren't more options/competition/more companies offering privacy-minded service a good thing?

    Kinda feel like being shut down here, which may have an unintended effect of people choosing not to want to engage in the future, even though I only meant to be helpful and share privacy-pertinent information with like-minded people.

      [deleted]

      "Kinda feel like being shut down here..."

      Do you mean that you feel like you're being shut down? Didn't you ask for people's "..thoughts, heads-up..." In your OP?

      Regarding silent.link - what networks does it use? Doesn't it still expose your IMEI?

        [deleted] Kinda feel like being shut down here, which may have an unintended effect of people choosing not to want to engage in the future, even though I only meant to be helpful and share privacy-pertinent information with like-minded people.

        I apologize if I came at all across like that, that was not my intention at all. I was just interested to understand better the advantages of silent link, and was comparing to jmp, because I know that is used by quite a few people in this community.

        Actually it's a topic in which I am not the most knowledgeable, and something which I want to understand better. I wasn't aware of the Watchman Privacy, so thanks also for sharing this. I've queued it in podcast app to listen later.

          • [deleted]

          • Edited

          [deleted]

          I don't have experience with JMP. Doesn't it require data? (It looks like they plan to offer if in the future via both SIM and eSIM, which would raise the very same issues with IMEI). https://jmp.chat/sim

          It's a separate product (there is a waitlist). Their primary product provides a gateway between your XMPP client and traditional phone networks.

          In fact, they even strongly discourage inbound legacy comms (SMS/calls) as unsafe (allowed basically for 2FA purposes when those couldn't be avoided).

          So does GrapheneOS:

          Legacy calls and texts should be avoided as they're not secure and trust the carrier / network along with having weak security against other parties. Trying to detect some forms of interception rather than dealing with the root of the problem (unencrypted communications / data transfer) would be foolish and doomed to failure.

          But, generally, it's great that there is a service such JMP. But what if it has limitations (looks like it may not be available in Europe)?

          No European numbers at this time (to my dismay) but there's a pretty straightforward Vonage SGX from them for those who need more numbers. But you can use their US/Canadian numbers from anywhere. They're inclusive like that.

          Aren't more options/competition/more companies offering privacy-minded service a good thing?

          My guess is there is no great demand.

          Kinda feel like being shut down here, which may have an unintended effect of people choosing not to want to engage in the future, even though I only meant to be helpful and share privacy-pertinent information with like-minded people.

          This forum is pretty low activity. You will have more luck in one of their Matrix rooms.

          • [deleted]

          spiral

          I'm interested in a service of such nature, so I suppose I naively expected something along the lines of "feature A looks shady..." or "I'm using SL and my experience has been..."

          I won't commment further on IMEI, etc. as i will only be paraphrasing original source, without understanding the matter in depth, or being able to judge if any of the claims are bogus. But put simply, there were enough words arranged in just the right manner to spike my curiousity.

          • [deleted]

          treequell

          I apologize as well for being quick-worded with my reply. Perhaps I'm spoiled by many thoughtful, respectful interactions I've read through and have come to expect that (matchboxbananasynergy specifically comes to mind, whose level-headed, considerate and well-crafted replies in some heated discussions help restore one's faith in humanity).

          As for Watchman, as mentioned, it's an excellent podcast. One note however, a recent episode, an interview about GrapheneOS left me quite dissatisfied - I felt the interviewee didn't, let's say, reflect reality (as I perceive it). It's too bad, misconceptions still persist.

          Have a great day

          What does this have to do with the operating system?

          What am I missing?

            [deleted] Anonymous esim sounds like dry water to me.

            Agreed.

            I think there may be some confusion because Wi-Fi and cellular networks can both reveal some location/identity information. But they are fundamentally different.

            The 802.11b designers weren't expecting anybody to drive around the planet building a map from ESSIDs to locations. It happened, but it wasn't part of the architecture.

            Cellular phone networks are built to track phones. It's part of the job. Delivering calls or texts or IP packets to a phone requires knowing roughly where the phone is (including which phone is which, i.e., identifying phones). More precision improves network efficiency. And that's before emergency responders lobby to improve the precision, before law enforcement asks for logs to be kept for a long time, etc. Cellular phone/data networks are fundamentally device tracking networks.

            And device tracking networks have a strong tendency to leak person identity. If a device spends a lot of time at your house and your workplace, it's probably your device, and when it moves you are likely moving with it. Changing your IMEI or your IMSI or your phone number or which carrier allegedly issued your IMSI or your phone number doesn't change where you live or work or whether you and your brother have lunch at the same pizza joint most Sundays.

            Stirring a little bit of randomness into your relationship with a device tracking network may well get you zero location anonymity with reapect to the network operator, if they pay cursory attention, and thus maybe other parties. This is true even though randomizing your Wi-Fi MAC address may usefully help conceal your identity from Wi-Fi network operators, if you use a VPN.

            And switching eSIMs between devices, unlike physical SIMS, involves not only the knowledge of the issuing carrier but also the carrier's permission.

            Maybe when thinking "cellular data service" it's prudent to think "tracking-network data service".

            @Blastoidea @[deleted] The post was marked as off-topic by the OP. It doesn't necessarily need to have to do with GrapheneOS to be on the forum. We regularly talk about 3rd party things that are wholly unaffiliated with GrapheneOS.

            While this Silent Link or any other similar service doesn't really address the fundamental issue with telecoms being... well, crap, an eSIM that requires no KYC might be an attractive option to some, especially as in some countries KYC is mandatory.

            • [deleted]

            Quite surprised with the amount of pushback.

            Am I missing something, or having a Pixel phone - that functions as a phone - like a super weird, fringe thing to do that nobody does??

            Yes, triangu-packet-network-IMEI-shmification = bad. Got it. Couldn't agree more. It's terrible. I know. So what now? Is that something average GOS user can opt out of? So how does one send an E2EE message when not at home? Or is that not a thing people do? What am I not getting? I would love to never again need to access cell network in any capacity.

            Is that the same 'dry water' as suggesting to a friend he's a moron for using Proton email? Yes, SMTP-DNS-IMAP-port465-jargon-jargon-jargon = bad. Yes, email is an ancient, fundamentally insecure protocol. It's terrible. Got it. Yes Proton won't do a thing if you send a regular message to a Gmail address. So what now? Do we just all give up? Sign up for Hotmail after sending photos of all our IDs to Microsoft? Like, really?

            How is that an excuse to not consider an option to attempt to protect - even if marginally - your privacy against an onslaught taking place at every step now?

            Some may have MInt or other non-KYC options available to you. Not everyone is so lucky. Having a service that one can aquire over TOR, without presenting any ID or even so much as an email address, that is paid for by Monero and provides reasonably priced roaming (which means one has choice of networks to select from) could be a valuable option to some. It appears that way to me, regardless.

            Is it an ideal proposition? Absolutely not. Is it yet another tool a person may use to further help insulate oneself against "their" disregard for privacy? Possibly.

            Dry-water and what-am-I-missing comments were rather poorly thought out and counterproductive. I decided I will give SL a try and will not be further sharing my experience here, as instead of constructive/helpful comments I walk away feeling just plain stupid.

              • [deleted]

              [deleted] Thank you for the podcast and SL recommendation. I also wonder if there is no other non-KYC ISP in Europe, other than JMP and SL.