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  • Switching from iOS, confused about App Stores and Profiles

coffeefun I'm glad we could help!

I have a couple of questions about your conclusions:

coffeefun Con: Google Play increases attack surface, and creates an extra attack channel via notifications. Solution: n/a

How do we arrive to this conclusion? What attack are you referring to here?

coffeefun Con: Google Play can see a list of installed apps on that profile. But, so can all other apps in that profile. Solution: Install Google Play on secondary profile(s), if that provides other actual benefits (e.g., having two sets of contacts).

Keep in mind that GrapheneOS has been implementing features that make it easier for you to provide more granular control of your data to apps even without needing profiles. An excellent example of this is Storage Scopes. GrapheneOS also plans to have Contact Scopes as well in order to limit what contacts an app will have access to. I thought I'd mention that since you specifically brought up contacts etc. :)

coffeefun Con: Google Play can communicate with other apps via mutual consent, and those apps can leak data to Google that way. Solution: 1) Install Google Play on secondary profile(s) away from sensitive apps; 2) In profile with Google Play, choose apps that are unlikely to willfully sharing data with Google (i.e., FOSS apps, privacy-friendly apps).

I just want to make it clear (I think you understand this, but I want to make sure) that this mutual communication is not in any way limited to Play Services etc. It's something that all apps are fundamentally capable of doing. If you think that one of your apps that houses sensitive data might be abusing this communication channel to pass on private data that you've trusted it with, perhaps the bigger issue isn't Sandboxed Google Play, but the app you're trusting with your data in the first place. Just some food for thought!

            matchboxbananasynergy

            Well, it serves me right to have it be my turn to answer questions!

            matchboxbananasynergy How do we arrive to this conclusion? What attack are you referring to here?

            This was mentioned in a post above. I hope I didn't miscommunicate. Let me try quoting it here; I hope I do it right!

            DeletedUser115 Extra software increases attack surface. Also, given Play Services can receive notifications it creates an extra attack channel

            matchboxbananasynergy GrapheneOS also plans to have Contact Scopes as well in order to limit what contacts an app will have access to.

            This would be great! I abandoned WhatsApp, for example, on iOS because of this very issue. I have many friends and colleagues that still use it as their primary messenger, so it's complicated for me to abandon it. I've only managed to convert a subset of my contacts to Signal over the years.

            matchboxbananasynergy I just want to make it clear (I think you understand this, but I want to make sure) that this mutual communication is not in any way limited to Play Services etc. It's something that all apps are fundamentally capable of doing. If you think that one of your apps that houses sensitive data might be abusing this communication channel to pass on private data that you've trusted it with, perhaps the bigger issue isn't Sandboxed Google Play, but the app you're trusting with your data in the first place. Just some food for thought!

            Yes, thank you for confirming, this was my understanding that all apps within a profile can do this. Other than Spotify, the apps in my owner profile are ones that come recommended by the privacy community (e.g., Signal, Protonmail, Standard Notes, Bitwarden, etc.). Am I correct in assuming that using this category of apps limits, or even negates, the privacy risks of this potential communication channel? Since it requires mutual consent between apps, I assume that even if Spotify wanted to secretly communicate with Signal, for example, that Signal would brush off those attempts, breaking the mutuality of that channel?

                        coffeefun This was mentioned in a post above. I hope I didn't miscommunicate. Let me try quoting it here; I hope I do it right!

                        I see, I must've missed that! I think that "attack channel" is very strong and scary wording. I'm assuming that what @DeletedUser115 means here is that if an app is not properly using FCM for notifications with Play Services (Signal is an example of an app that does this properly), you could be leaking your notifications to Play Services. It all goes back to trusting the developers of your apps to be doing things properly in the first place.

                        coffeefun This would be great! I abandoned WhatsApp, for example, on iOS because of this very issue. I have many friends and colleagues that still use it as their primary messenger, so it's complicated for me to abandon it. I've only managed to convert a subset of my contacts to Signal over the years.

                        Absolutely, you shouldn't have to stop using an app just because it insists on using an invasive permission (apps are fully capable of implementing a contact picker that allow you to choose specific contacts as far as I understand, but it's one of those things that we've never even seen, because no apps seem interested in using it). Storage Scopes were huge, and in my opinion is one of the greatest features that are unique to GrapheneOS. Contact Scopes will only make things better. :)

                        coffeefun Since it requires mutual consent between apps, I assume that even if Spotify wanted to secretly communicate with Signal, for example, that Signal would brush off those attempts, breaking the mutuality of that channel?

                        Correct, both apps would have to agree and explicitly define that they're open to communicating with one another.

                                matchboxbananasynergy I think that "attack channel" is very strong and scary wording. I'm assuming that what @evalda means here is that if an app is not properly using FCM for notifications with Play Services (Signal is an example of an app that does this properly), you could be leaking your notifications to Play Services.

                                I am sorry if it sounded scarier than it should be :) Scenario you describe is one possibility, but I was referring to the fact that any inbound communication channel (push notifications in this case) create a new way how your device can be targeted and potentially compromised.

                                I don't think it adds a lot of risk, especially for an average user. Nevertheless, it's still an extra communication channel which may have bugs in its implementation which can be discovered and potentially exploited. The less ways there are to receive network packets from the outside world, the better. But again, I don't think it adds significant risk.

                                    DeletedUser115

                                    Thanks for including this possibility in the discussion. It's helpful for someone like me, not very tech savvy, to at least be aware of these issues, even if my personal threat model is vanilla. It's important to be aware of the potential consequences when agreeing to use features, and then let the user decide if that is a likely scenario. Thanks for your help!

                                      matchboxbananasynergy Anything that Play Store can see, other apps can too.

                                      Irrelevant.

                                      It's Google's core business model to fingerprint every person and combine as much data as possible about each together to build a detailed personal profile about them - not so of almost all other apps. They aren't doing this and do not have the extremely broad reach across the internet and devices which Google does, so can only be much less invasive.

                                      Furthermore, for the many users who do not live on the U.S., they do not expose themselves to NSA wiretaps to nearly the same risk if they do not use American-based services like Google's infrastructure.

                                          ve3jlg GrapheneOS does not bundle any type of Google service or app in it. If someone is not okay with using Sandboxed Google Play after fully understanding how it works and that it is fundamentally different compared to privileged play services that you would find on the Stock OS, they can simply choose to not use it.

                                          Not everyone's threat model, needs, or expectations are the same. People need the apps they depend on to work. The best way for them to do that is to use Sandboxed Google Play. It is better than using Stock OS with privileged play services, and it is much better, and much more secure than other approaches trying to do the same thing.

                                          If you can use all the apps you need without Sandboxed Google Play, you're free to not use it; in fact, that would be ideal, but people's journey into privacy doesn't happen instantly, and the more you try to change at once, the more likely you are to completely give up and go back to something objectively worse.

                                          People who use Sandboxed Google Play on GrapheneOS are already miles ahead of most people when it comes to their phones.

                                            matchboxbananasynergy Again, this is something that only has to be done for the first install. Subsequent updates are fine, because your device will check that the signing keys match and won't update if they don't.

                                            If one decides to switch apk sources, will uninstalling the app clear signatures and reset TOFU?

                                            I realize that user data will be lost.

                                                ve3jlg If one decides to switch apk sources, will uninstalling the app clear signatures and reset TOFU?

                                                Yes. Once an app is uninstalled from all user profiles on the device, then installing an app with the same app ID again can have any signature it wants.

                                                If that wasn't the case, you could move between F-Droid builds (signed by F-Droid) and developer builds (signed by the developer), for example.

                                                The point about it being in all profiles is important because that thing is universal. If you have a variant of an app of an app in one profile and try to install an app with same app id but a different signature in another profile, Android will stop you, as it detects that you already have it installed with another key.

                                                Same thing applies to trying to install a version than the currently installed version in another profile.

                                                    9 months later

                                                    matchboxbananasynergy

                                                    Hey there!
                                                    Switching from ios myself and the way you and others have explained couple of questions in this thread is invaluable, if i can suggest to pin this particular thread somewhere easier to find for the newcomers, this here is pure gold!
                                                    Cheers

                                                      I switched from 2 years use of iOS and Android prior to that.

                                                      The approach suggested by matchbox is almost the same path I took. I installed a single profile initially without sandboxed playstore and depended upon Droid-ify, Obtainium, and Aurora. Later, I added a second profile with sandboxed playstore and only run limited apps there (Google Maps, Lyft, Hilton, Waze, United, and Marriott. I think only Lyft requires google services but have decided to make that profile travel only.

                                                        • [deleted]

                                                        • Post #50

                                                        Kottonballs how do you do banking? Don't you use an app? How are you satisfied with your FOSS video messaging app (I presume you use one)?

                                                            coffeefun
                                                            Hey there, it's been almost a year since you started on the journey, could you help - share what set up you have arrived at so far and how is it serving you?
                                                            Cheers

                                                              matchboxbananasynergy

                                                              hey again!

                                                              • Wanted to double check if i understand correctly - if i use Obtainium on a single profile device - as long as i check the web site for the app and expect the dev to be responsible about their keys (eg proton, signal, nextcloud) I have no reason to worry about the updates coming through obtanium?
                                                              • and another thing - if i'd use single profile with obtanium, any options of getting a tesla app and google camera, without using gPlay & aurora store? (i know the question is a bit dumb, i just wanted to make sure)
                                                                Cheers

                                                                  • [deleted]

                                                                  • Post #53
                                                                  • Edited

                                                                  MrStreisand Wanted to double check if i understand correctly - if i use Obtainium on a single profile device - as long as i check the web site for the app and expect the dev to be responsible about their keys (eg proton, signal, nextcloud) I have no reason to worry about the updates coming through obtanium?

                                                                  Android uses trust-on-first-use model approach where you only need to worry about whether you got the right app initially (ie it's not some fake lookalike). Obtainium is just a scraper. It's does not verify signing certificates and neither does GrapheneOS (for now). If you want to bypass Play Store (or other stores), it's on you to determine you've downloaded the right thing.

                                                                  and another thing - if i'd use single profile with obtanium, any options of getting a tesla app and google camera, without using gPlay & aurora store?

                                                                  You can use APKMirror or APKPure for that, but you need to worry about updating those yourself and above still applies.

                                                                    [deleted] I don't use any banking apps. I have accounts at several banks and do all of my transactions in person or over telephone.

                                                                    I also don't use video chat as I don't want my image data gathered as much as possible. For messaging, I use Session and Element.

                                                                      coffeefun
                                                                      For your Spotify problem you can install Spotube in default profile.
                                                                      It doesn't require play services.
                                                                      Install spotify in a secondary profile with play services.