Could GOS OEM phones feature removable battery, expandable storage?

gvprtskvni

I know this is not the focus of the GrapheneOS project, but it would be nice if they brought back the consumer friendly features phone manufacturers have removed in recent times, such as removable batteries, SD card slot, headphone jack. Of course, if doing so would increase the price a lot, worsen security or otherwise be technically infeasible, we can obviously make do without it. But if possible, it would be a great quality of life improvement.

de0u

gvprtskvni The key matter is here: https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices

At the moment there are no devices that meet the security requirements that have those features. In general, very few devices with those features are being built by anybody. It appears that this is because the vast majority of users do not value those features, or at least not enough to offset increased costs or other problems. For example, removable batteries and SD slots make water resistance harder and more expensive.

The GrapheneOS project is not presently in a position to compel OEMs to add physical features that most users do not demand. It is difficult enough to find an OEM willing to meet the security standards.

The situation is similar to the situation with the very small fraction of iPhone users (probably under 1%) who intensely want a new iPhone mini. Those users absolutely exist, and they very much want what they want, but in Apple's judgment the costs would be greater than the benefits.

Please note that I do not speak for the GrapheneOS project.

gvprtskvni

de0u Right, understood.

dc32f0cfe84def651e0e

de0u For example, removable batteries and SD slots make water resistance harder and more expensive.

MOTOTRBO ION / Lex / Evolve, Hytera PDC760 / PDC680 — no issues with them. Same is about any LMR radio handheld. The body and the battery are separately IP68, that's the industry standard and they don't cost fortune.

de0u

de0u For example, removable batteries and SD slots make water resistance harder and more expensive.

dc32f0cfe84def651e0e MOTOTRBO ION / Lex / Evolve, Hytera PDC760 / PDC680 — no issues with them. Same is about any LMR radio handheld. The body and the battery are separately IP68, that's the industry standard and they don't cost fortune.

A couple of prices from around the web show MOTOTRBO Ion devices around $2500, likewise Hytera PDC760. That's a wee bit more than Pixel phones (like a factor of five compared to a 9a). Clearly removable batteries and water resistance can be done together, but that doesn't mean it can be done without cost.

1qkv9ddu3so2irvz

Still, I like this proposal, because let's be honest: We people who use GrapheneOS aren't "normal" smartphone users, we are much more technical, we value other things than normal folks do. I don't have data to support this theory, but I'm very sure I'm right.

A phone as proposed here (and let's add it being a small device) would be amazing and I'd happily pay a bit more for it. But of course we have to stay realistic here!

dc32f0cfe84def651e0e

1qkv9ddu3so2irvz Yet the GrapheneOS team refuses to lower their requirements.

Franckienogotobollywood

1qkv9ddu3so2irvz I confirm. I met 2 security researchers not long ago, I told them about GrapheneOS but they didn't know at all and didn't care. They both use old f2 poco. On the other hand, they insisted on using an offline password manager

dc32f0cfe84def651e0e

For now, I really doubt the reality of the said upcoming phone(s). GrapheneOS refuses to give any particular details about their OEM partner. Could be a hoax after all.

... our OEM partnership. It's a well known and established company. We've said it's one of the top 10 Android OEMs and aren't going to say more than that at this point.

https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/1969504256311890059#m

DeletedUser481

dc32f0cfe84def651e0e

Nah its real. They already have manufacturer access because of them. Also when you read all GrapheneOS's comments on this topic you can pretty much make out what manufacturers they were interested in and which ones of those already fell through. In any case, I would look at Motorola's high end offerings if you'd like to know what kind of devices will probably be supported.

phone-company

dc32f0cfe84def651e0e and this is absolutly correct.

dc32f0cfe84def651e0e

de0u https://www.dmr24.com/hytera-pdc680-handfunkgeraet-uhf-akku-2400mah-antenne-400-470/ar539413 less than 1200 EUR. And note these devices are not Android only, they also comprise an LMR radio part.

Check for Hytera PNC380 which is a PoC solution on an outdated Android without LMR part: https://www.dmr24.com/hytera-pnc380d-handfunkgeraete-poc-lte-wlan-ohne-nfc/ar523528 — 266 EUR and it daes have removable battery and IP67 protection.

de0u

dc32f0cfe84def651e0e Hytera PNC380 [...] 266 EUR and it daes have removable battery and IP67 protection.

I don't think that's really comparable to any Pixel, since it has 1 GB of RAM and a quite small display (source).

I don't think I claimed it's impossible to put a display and some buttons and an LTE modem and some random SoC into a thick heavy case for the price of a Pixel while achieving water resistance and a removable battery. I think the question at hand is whether a modern smartphone one could run GrapheneOS on would be more expensive with a removable battery while remaining water resistant.

Eirikr70

There are many cool feature we all would like to have on GrapheneOS or on their expected hardware. The main is I would be very happy if they have success in having an OEM build a device meeting their expectations at a reasonable price.If they succeed in building an entire range with both big and small screen, repairable, waterproof devices, nude or with bells and whistles, great ! But let's start with the basics !
(I am French, hence the space before the exclamation point, don't ask)

Meatheadmarty

The new Murena phone has so many great features. Too bad it won't run Graphene OS and has no Titan chip. They did a lot of really nice stuff with the design, including interior hardware switches to turn off camera and mic and an SD card and removable battery. I still prefer Graphene on a pixel to their newest device, but I hope if the Graphene team is looking at their own hardware designs they borrow the internal switches and SD card stuff.

mar2112

IMO part of the reason of doing away with headphone jack, removable battery and SD card slot is to make devices that are more water resistant. Every removable cover and port is a place for water.

LeslieFH

mar2112

I had multiple Sony phones that were water resistant, had headphone jacks, SD slots and removable batteries.

The main reason for doing away with SD card slots and removable batteries is shareholder value. If you can't put a 1 TB SD card in your phone, you're going to pay through the nose for a 1 TB Pixel. If you can't easily swap the battery, you'll be more eager to trade in your old iPhone for a new iPhone. The headphone jack uses a lot of internal space and BT headphones are much more convenient than wired ones, so I do see the logic here, but the SD cards were not done away with "because of water resistance" (the devices that can use microSD usually put them on the same tray as the SIM cards, which are still with us), but because they disincentivised people to buy the expensive "lots of internal memory" models.

de0u

Franckienogotobollywood I met 2 security researchers not long ago, I told them about GrapheneOS but they didn't know at all and didn't care.

That seems a little surprising given:

There's that Snowden endorsement, and
The Swedish and Catalan police are willing to be quoted about GrapheneOS, and
There's that Cellbrite matrix.

But maybe they're laser-focused on SCADA security, or maybe automotive... it's hard to know what "security researcher" means from just the phrase.

Franckienogotobollywood

de0u We didn't go into the details but they check the applications from what I understand

de0u

LeslieFH The main reason for doing away with SD card slots and removable batteries is shareholder value. [...] If you can't easily swap the battery, you'll be more eager to trade in your old iPhone for a new iPhone.

It is true that some people will trade in early, but also true that some people will file class-action lawsuits. Meanwhile, I am curious as to whether the people who swap batteries as their jobs believe that sealed phones exist just to create jobs for them as a way to increase shareholder value.

LeslieFH The SD cards were not done away with "because of water resistance" (the devices that can use microSD usually put them on the same tray as the SIM cards, which are still with us), but because they disincentivised people to buy the expensive "lots of internal memory" models.

As much as I am not thrilled about it, it seems pretty clear that physical SIM cards are on the way out. And in a sense that will be supportive of "shareholder value", since the companies will continue down that route only if they think most customers will be fine without a physical SIM slot and they will be able to make more money by using the space for something else that most people want more.

wizoatk

DeletedUser481 I would look at Motorola's high end offerings

I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it turned out to be a 2026 model year Motorola Edge Ultra.

neotux

Sorry guys, I am out of my depth on the subject. But perhaps a Fairphone with GrapheneOS could be interesting.

I for one, would rather give my money to Fairphone/GrapheneOS than the awkward situation to feed Google first to get rid of it, to the extent made possible by GrapheneOS, later.

Dumdum

neotux
No.

Fairphones do not provide proper privacy or security patches themselves and /e/ makes that substantially worse. It's not possible to have a reasonable level of privacy and security on those devices. They're not any more open to other OSes than other devices like Pixels.

You should read https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24134-devices-lacking-standard-privacysecurity-patches-and-protections-arent-private and the third party sources linked in it.