If you take out the SIM, what are some ways still can be tracked:
Yes/no? to following:
1) e911,
2) Satellite (for pixel 9),
3) wifi,
4) Bluetooth
5) any others?
Any solutions to mitigate appreciated.
Taking out SIM and tracking
GeorgeSoros 1) e911
No, if you turn on Airplane mode.
GeorgeSoros 2) Satellite
No, if you turn off the global Location permission.
GeorgeSoros 3) wifi
No, if you turn off Wi-Fi.
GeorgeSoros 4) Bluetooth
No, if you turn off Bluetooth.
yore No, if you turn off the global Location permission
I think the OP referred to the satellite communication that's coming on Pixel 9, not the GPS. I am not sure yet how exactly it will work, e.g. if Airplane mode disables it too.
yore GeorgeSoros 2) Satellite
No, if you turn off the global Location permission.
As others have said they are probably thinking about the SOS Satellite feature, not GPS. However even if the global toggle is enabled but only apps that do not track you have it enabled that would not mean you are being tracked by it, since GPS is a receiver only protocol. Unless maybe you use the Google implementation with network location data or something.
yore No, if you turn on Airplane mode.
Emergency 911 calling will disable airplane mode from lockscreen, allowing for triangulation via the mobile network. So this is an attack vector if somebody gets their hands on your phone, even if locked and in BFU state.
Another thing not mentioned by OP: You can disable emergency alerts in the settings on GOS to avoid presidential alert tests etc.. This might be illegal in your jurisdiction though and if you have a SIM installed and connect to the network, the provider can enable it again.
- Edited
N1b Emergency 911 calling will disable airplane mode from lockscreen, allowing for triangulation via the mobile network. So this is an attack vector if somebody gets their hands on your phone, even if locked and in BFU state.
What's BFU?
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BFU = Before First Unlock, meaning the data is at rest I believe.
- Edited
GeorgeSoros Using live e911 to track a subject's movement.
[removed] I'm sure there are protocols to 911 calling and how they are allowed to track callers. There are settings in regular phones which automatically allow data to be sent to call centers but it is explicitly said that service providers can submit and send similar data to call centers too. Is someone or something misusing this protocol really is in your threat model? You can just use Airplane mode if you are really worried.
N1b Emergency 911 calling will disable airplane mode from lockscreen
I wasn't aware of this. Good to know 😉.
N1b allowing for triangulation via the mobile network.
The user can disable their SIM which should prevent this behaviour. Then again, I don't know if e911 can connect without cellular connection.
DeletedUser115 I think the OP referred to the satellite communication that's coming on Pixel 9, not the GPS.
I was wondering why OP mentioned the Pixel 9 specifically without context 😉.
In any case, we can't say anything until it's released and ported to GrapheneOS. Else we can only speculate.
- Edited
yore that's the trick, you don't need a SIM card to call 911, and you don't need a SIM card for connecting to the mobile network towers around you. Only the airplane mode stops this, and it can be deactivated without your pin via 911 call.
To be fair, this is only for very high threat models of targeted people, but it's important to know nonetheless.
N1b
That's not a very valid attack scenario unless I'm missing something, an attacker (or you) have to press the emergency button on the lock screen.
Why would you need the network assistance of determining your own location? if you or the attacker press the button, you already know the location :)
The point is that it's not the SIM that matters, it's turning on Airplane mode to disable the cellular modem. (And also defining for yourself who you want to avoid being tracked by.)
- Edited
23Sha-ger AtavisticPuma you're both correct. It's a very hypothetical attack vector. It's just important to know all the strengths and limits of your OS and to have a sufficiently detailed threat model to make informed decisions.
I personally am very good with not using a SIM card and always be in airplane mode, fits my threat model. I'm not worried about the 911 attack vector as something an adversary will use to harm me.
But: Knowing how it works allows me to not leave the phone around children, thinking there's absolutely nothing they could do to mess with my threat model because "I'm using GrapheneOS and it's locked".
That's why I love this forum, you'll get valuable information and people are quick to correct misunderstandings, even if they seem negligible. Helped me many times to get things right, and I'm still learning. Glad to be on the other side for once to give back to the community. :)
N1b
"disable emergency alerts in the settings on GOS to avoid presidential alert tests"
What is the benefit to do so?
See:
https://grapheneos.org/features#other-features
Wireless alerts are completely optional since GrapheneOS adds a toggle for the otherwise mandatory presidential alert type. This is particularly useful in Canada where the government abuses the system and sends every type of alert as a presidential alert to stop users from being able to opt out of weather and amber alerts.
We sometimes end up with blaring Presidential alerts at 3 in the morning because a child was reported missing.
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GeorgeSoros Just take out the RF Tranceiver if worried about "cellular tracking"
GeorgeSoros Good question
GeorgeSoros Why was my question removed?
If it was related to fiddling with the internal hardware, it might be that this is dangerous advice that easily corrupts the system or might be even impossible to achieve (e.g. specific chips are not isolated so you would remove critical hardware and brick your device). I have no expertise here though and yes it would have been nice to get a short explanation from the mod.