Tempted by GrapheneOS, but Pixels are so expensive & Android Doubts (VPN/DNS)

luckylinux

My current Phone, a Xiaomi Redmi Note 10 Pro which I had been using since Mid 2022, mostly broke Yesterday.

I was thinking for a while about GrapheneOS, particulary since I read about the Brax3 Phone (quite Underpowered, Expensive and sub-optimal Support in my View) and at that Price Point I though that the Google Pixel Phones was "just" slightly more expensive but way better.

I live in Europe and, right now, I could get the Google Pixel 9a 128GB for 400 EUR. Or the Google Pixel 9a 256GB for 500 EUR. That's a lot of Money coming from Xiaomi Redmi Note Family which ranges at around 200-250 EUR (and could, at least until the Redmi Note 13 Pro, be used with CrDroid). Or other alternatives such as Motorola Moto G84 8GB RAM 256GB which goes for around 185 EUR (and should be usable with CalyxOS).

On one Side, IF the Software Support from Google and GrapheneOS is very Good, one might say it's not a bad Deal. But for instance when reading about the Google Pixel 8a and how it was using cheap Plastic instead of Metal, or how the Wireless Charge is severely neutered on these Phones. The Long Term Support after all is only relevant if the Hardware doesn't break down. I'm thinking of my old Samsung Galaxy S4 that was very expensive and broke down a few Days after Warranty ended ...

I had my Xiaomi Redmi Note 10 Pro drop a few Times out of my Pocket (from say 70cm Height) and it still works.
I have no Idea how "rugged" the Google Pixel Phones are. I would get one of these Rugged Cases for the Backside and some Gorilla Screen Protector for the Front, but not sure how much it would fair overall.

I get it that GrapheneOS is mainly focused on Privacy with a good second on Security and Hardening (and unfortunately it cannot be used on other Phones), but to be honest I'm a bit disappointed by the entire Android Landscape and I'm not sure how well GrapheneOS would fare in that regards.

I used custom ROMs on my old Moto G4 and Moto G5 Plus, but it's always a Mess IMHO (Lack of Updates, some Features not working e.g. GPS, have to re-flash, go into Recovery, no OTA working, etc).

I have an iPhone 15 at Work and it just works. I hate it so I only use it for Work Email and HomeAssistant basically, but at least I can use it to connect Home using Wireguard VPN. No Issues at all (knock on Wood), but I'm still not used to all Gestures that are so different from the Android Ecosystem.

As for the Xiaomi Redmi Note 10 Pro ... I think Wireguard VPN worked for like 5 Minutes once, then never again. I don't know if it's a "Private DNS" Issue or whatnot (or the lack of DNS over HTTPS in my Homelab or no DNS Records on Public DNS Servers etc), but I cannot resolve any DNS Records while connected over VPN. Which makes the entire Thing useless.

And looking briefly at the FAQ, I'm not sure GrapheneOS would work better in that Regards, since it's mentioned:

In my Homelab I have PiHole as DNS Forwarders and those are broken with Cloudflare DNS which includes Malware Filtering (1.1.1.2 & 1.0.0.2) together with DNS over TLS, so it's just back to using standard DNS (Port UDP 53).

These are however only accessed for forwarding to the Internet, for internal Usage it's just a couple ISC Bind Servers (cannot remember if DNS over TLS is enabled there).

Since I don't want to enumerate my entire Homelab on the Public DNS, I would need Android to query my DNS Server over Wireguard VPN, if I wanted to access a Host in my Homelab.

That's one of the main Points I'm not too sure about if any Android would allow that.

Besides Wireguard, I also failed to get Tailscale (using Headscale self-hosted) and Netbird working (this mostly due to a Server-Side Setup Issue).

In all, how is the Quality of the Hardware in terms of Longevity and Ruggedness ? What about DNS/VPN as explained above ?

Thanks for your Help

raccoondad

luckylinux On one Side, IF the Software Support from Google and GrapheneOS is very Good, one might say it's not a bad Deal.

Google paid for 2 repairs due to hardware failure on their end, I didn't pay a dime for it. One was the screen, which was faulty, and one was the motherboard, which shorted.

That was the 5a series, my 6a has never had issues.

raccoondad

luckylinux I get it that GrapheneOS is mainly focused on Privacy with a good second on Security and Hardening

It isn't, its focused almost exclusively on security, privacy just comes with their hardening.

trilogy6202

luckylinux Since I don't want to enumerate my entire Homelab on the Public DNS, I would need Android to query my DNS Server over Wireguard VPN, if I wanted to access a Host in my Homelab.

That's one of the main Points I'm not too sure about if any Android would allow that.

Yes you can do this on android (including GrapheneOS) exactly the same way you do on an iPhone, just specify your local DNS server(s) in the Wireguard app and you are good to go.

natoal

I don't see why it should use metal or even glass rather than plastic. Plastic is durable enough unless you make it a habit to drop the phone on concrete. I might be wrong on this but it's probably lighter as well. Iirc GOS currently does not have protection against wireless charging exploits which some threads on this forum cover. Some might say wireless charging is necessary to prevent the port from wearing down but to me it's awkward without MagSafe. Motorola phones are cheaper because they don't commit to their software updates. You said yourself that custom ROMs are a mess

Pixel phones tend to heat up though so it's something to watch out for. The A series uses a cheaper glass for the screen

Pocketstar

I have a wide range of Pixels, (6a, 7, tablet, 9pxl) I can confirm the difference between the cheap and more expensive models is negligible.
However, I would start with at least a Pixel 8 or higer considering it has MTE hardware support and it has longer support. (7 years instead of 5)
And yeah, some A models have plastic backs, and cheaper glass, but I never scuffed my Pixel 6a, they are just as durable as their expensive counterparts.
Only the Pro-models have that extra periscope camera, but all the other camera's are very comparible in quality.
The chipsets and security are identical when it comes to the A and Pro series.
I would suggest to just buy a cheap Pixel 8A, or if you can find one cheap, a Pixel 9A, they are all good phones regardless.

natoal

Pocketstar

Do you think it's worth it? The batteries of Pixel 8a are about 1 year old now. It might be better to wait 5-6 months to get the discounted 9a which also has a vapour chamber and a larger battery

Pocketstar

natoal
I think a Pixel 9A is the better purchase, I also think it is well worth the wait considering it has that 5000mAh battery.
I don't have one myself, my newest A-model is a Pixel 6A, which I am really happy with, but I can only recommend a newer model due to those extra benefits like MTE and longer support.
So, yeah, I would recommend the Pixel9A, even though the 8A would be just fine. (The battery life on the 8A is a little shorter on that one though, but I don't think the battery degraded unless you buy a used model)

Here is a technical comparison between the two:
https://m.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone1=12937&idPhone2=13478

wqwwrea

Just buy a second-hand of Pixel 8a/Pixel 8, shouldn't be expensive.

luckylinux

wqwwrea Almost same Price as used if you don't count those with the broken Display :/

luckylinux

Well I wish I could wait.

My Phone broke so it's either grab another Cheapo Motorola/Xiaomi Redmi Phone for 200 EUR or so now (or attempt to fix this one for ~ 40 EUR of Parts, assuming I manage to repair it - I managed to basically tear it open and strip the flex Cable for the Volume Keys and Power Button) or buy the Google Pixel now.

The Google Pixel 9a for 400 EUR is probably OK.

Below that Price, in one Retailer's Outlet, I could get:

Google Pixel 8a 256GB almost new for 360 EUR
Google Pixel 8a 128GB new for 285 EUR (probably because nobody wanted this Green Color :D ?)
Google Pixel 7a 128GB almost new for 300 EUR

chinook

luckylinux TBH I'd probably go used 7Pro. 7a for 300 EUR seems like a rip off. In terms of flashiness, sure, new Xiaomi/Redmi will come with more Mpix and brighter screen, but also builtin backdoors, so you decide what you prefer :)

No one here would say that in the absolute terms these brands have trash hardware (after all almost all our phones are made and assembled in China!), but the difference is in the architecture (I'm certain many of GOS users would love to have a choice of hardware, I would), and security support.
If brands like Sony can stop supporting flagships less than 2 years from release, they're not a viable choice.
If a vendor doesn't provide firmware updates, they're not secure.

Pick your poison.

PS. Maybe just get a beaten 6 Pro until you save for 8 Pro / 9a or so? You can get it fairly cheap and it's still a brilliant piece of hardware.

FaberCastell

luckylinux 400 bucks for the 9a seems pretty good
I paid not far off that for the 6a about 18 months ago... Haven't used the newer models but it seems like there's been a lot of improvements to the hardware in the 8 and 9 series

luckylinux

raccoondad That does NOT apply after the 2 Year (or 1 Year) Warranty though ...

matchboxbananasynergy

Current era Pixels get 7 years of support from launch, along with having parts available via iFixIt for that duration.

If you consider that proper support is a requirement for security and privacy, the price becomes a lot more tempting. A Xiaomi device that costs 250 bucks but runs out of support in 2 years (which another OS cannot compensate for, by the way), it's suddenly not a very value for money proposition.

Regarging ruggedness, I can give you an anecdote. I've had the Pixel 6 since launch with a fairly protective case. I've dropped it countless times. I've tossed it, I've dropped it on the floor, it's even fallen down steps. Not a single issue with the phone, or any damage on it. I used to have a screen protector, but I broke it at some point and didn't bother installing another one. No scratches or anything like that on my screen, despite putting it in the same pocket as my keys sometimes (though I try to avoid it).

Your mileage may vary, and I'm sure others don't have the same experience, but I thought I'd let you know what my experience was like. I'm definitely upgrading once the 6 runs out of support in 2026.

luckylinux

matchboxbananasynergy A Xiaomi device that costs 250 bucks but runs out of support in 2 years (which another OS cannot compensate for, by the way), it's suddenly not a very value for money proposition.

My Xiaomi Redmi Note 10 Pro latest Android Patch is from 2023-08-01.

Which another OS cannot compensate for, by the way
What do you mean exactly here ?

In Terms of what ?

CalyxOS, CrDroid, LineageOS, etc would all provide Patches for Android, either officially or though community unofficial Builds.

In Terms of Linux Kernel there might indeed be no Patch available or at least severely lagging behind.

Regarding Firmware/Bootloader probably none whatsoever.

matchboxbananasynergy

luckylinux

CalyxOS, CrDroid, LineageOS, etc would all provide Patches for Android, either officially or though community unofficial Builds.

This is incorrect. A device that is not being supported by the vendor cannot receive updates for the firmware. That is why it is important to support devices that get full, proper, timely, and lengthy support.

We are aware that the way other projects phrase their extended support for various devices is misleading and people who don't know any better assume that using an OS like that means that they're getting full updates, but that is simply not the case. We're honest with people and explain that extended support releases which we have provided for devices in the past are merely for harm reduction and are not complete security updates, because that's simply not possible.

luckylinux

matchboxbananasynergy Which is what I said in the next Paragraph, isn't it ?

Basically the other Projects mainly provide Userland Patches (the Application Layer, mainly), all running on a unpatched Kernel & Firmware.

matchboxbananasynergy

luckylinux That's not proper support, and those devices are not private or secure.

luckylinux

matchboxbananasynergy Yeah and the few other Devices that could get proper Support (via Open Source Hardware e.g. Librem Phone, Fairphone, Pinephone / Pinephone Pro, etc) are quite behind in Terms of Performance and about as expensive as the Google Pixel :(.

yore

luckylinux Not necessarily performance but they lack hardware level security. It's the reason why the project has only supported Pixels so far due to both the ability to switch OSes without compromising on security features (like Samsung phones, which otherwise could have been considered) and proper hardware security.

matchboxbananasynergy

luckylinux None of the devices you mentioned are open hardware.

In fact, in the case of the librem phone, the firmware is not updateable at all, something which they did to go after FSF certification.

When it comes down to it, if somebody asks me for a phone recommendation, it will be a Google Pixel with GrapheneOS, or a supported iPhone. Maybe a stock Pixel too, as a third option.

natoal

yore

But Samsung doesn't have a security chip on par with Titan

luckylinux

matchboxbananasynergy I have a Work iPhone 15 but it's both small Screen and I feel like I am never able to get it working like I did with Android :/.

It's still quite a bit of Money though in absolute Terms.

You are probably just going to say what is 200 EUR / Year (assuming it breaks 1 Day after the Warranty ends) for the Price of Security and Data Privacy ?