There is an issue Feature Request: Automatic call recording #2083, where people are complainig that developers are not listening to them.

I understand that users' opinions are important, but sometimes (often?) users do not know enough about security. So in several cases opinion of developers is more important (i. e. should have more weight).

My suggestion would be, that developers continue to make important decisions, but they could create a list of additional features that users would want to be developed. Users would then have an option to vote which of those features should get priority. And again: the list would be compiled by developers.

What do you think?

    Matthai

    Matthai What do you think?

    Matthai
    Well you did ask... This is what I think.
    you get a word class secure safe and work out of the box operating system for free, and complain about not being listened to about what "we" want,
    What I want is a device that if I loose or is stolen I know beyond doubt no fucker is getting into it and abusing my data, period.
    I don't care what the OS looks like, I don't care some apps don't work, I don't care its not pretty colours, I care that the developers are not wasting their time curating lists of what people want rather than on GrapheneOS. Function over form any day...

            DeletedUser64 Agree. There are not 200 development team members at all and I know that just mainenance and upstream merging is a significant effort.
            All apps can be replaced by the user and the base OS is stable. It takes time to find apps that fit best someones needs.
            If someone is on the run because the iranian revolutionary guards are after him, I guess the base apps plus signal is good enough and there is no time for fancy stuff.
            What does not work is known and is "as is". For such cases I have an ipad.

              GrapheneOS is on offer.

              It is everyone’s free choice whether or not to use it.

              Well, I explicitly said that developer's opinion is more important here.

              However, we should not forget, that users are also important. They are not "stupid garbage". They are the ones, that form the ecosystem, test software, etc.

              I am not saying there should be significant effort put into those "lists". Just maybe give users some signs that they are (minor, but still) partner in this project.

              Of course, if there is no resources for that, this can also be communicated on open and kind way.

              • de0u replied to this.

                Matthai However, we should not forget, that users are also important. They are not "stupid garbage".

                It is unclear who is being quoted. Did somebody say that users are "stupid garbage"?

                Matthai I am not saying there should be significant effort put into those "lists". Just maybe give users some signs that they are (minor, but still) partner in this project.

                In the past month a user reported a problem with the lock screen, which the developers jumped on and quickly determined to be an exposure of an existing upstream bug. Also the developers are releasing a somewhat silly (in my opinion) change to enable customers of a somewhat silly bank (my opinion, based on the nature of the fix) to temporarily continue using that bank. Some time back a brand-new user did a packet-capture audit of the behavior of VPN restriction, and uncovered several bugs that the developers spent a lot of time and effort addressing.

                If there are some users for whom voting is a mandatory requirement for considering themselves as partners, and the developers don't implement a voting system, those users may decide they are not in a partner relationship with the developers, and they are of course free to do so. But "if we can't vote then we must be stupid garbage" is an interesting perspective. Does Linus Torvalds decide which features go into the Linux kernel based on user votes? Does the FreeBSD core team decide strategic direction based on end-user votes?

                    Please do not misunderstand me.

                    I did not said that ALL, or STRATEGIC decisions should be left to users. On the contrary.

                    Also, nobody explicitly said that users are "stupid garbage". But sometimes they are treated this way (by completely ignoring).

                    I just wanted to start a discussion whether it is possible to be more inclusive toward users.

                    However, there is another solution. Voting by donating.

                      Matthai However, there is another solution. Voting by donating.

                      This.

                      If you are not donating time, expertise, or money to the project, it does not seem fair to expect your opinions on what features should be a priority to carry much weight.

                        Matthai However, there is another solution. Voting by donating

                        I donate regularly every month but I don't consider myself to be a shareholder with voting rights to steer the company in the direction I want. On the contrary, if the product becomes different to what I require I can 'vote with my wallet' and go elsewhere. Can't see it happening for me as I am very happy with it but who knows the future?

                          I do not understand why they wont just add things people want?

                          Like why can't I just make the gesture bar invisible? It's super annoying. Or why does every app cut off the top where the camera is? Why can't I just zoom to fullscreen or just have it working like normal android? Why can't I have forward swipe on one side and back on the other like how IOS works and the way it makes the most sense?

                          All these little things build up and it makes me appreciate how Samsung let you do so much more to customize... At least they did, I'm not sure now, but I could do all these things when I used Android a few versions ago.

                          Then you add all that with how there isn't any contactless payment options and it's a big bummer to use. I know they cannot control that one.... I thought Android would have at least one alternative option, but I cannot find one other than buying a Garmin watch. It's just like why can't they make my life easier in other ways? Hiding the gesture bar, allowing you to select swipe options and sorting the full screen thing cannot be that hard to do.

                            I guess there are not enough resources, so they need to carefully direct development.

                            I completely understand that.

                            I am just thinking, that maybe there should be just some small influence from the users.

                            P. S. Those small things are what make a difference between good product and excellent product. And in reality majority of people will choose a product that is polished instead product that is more secure. That is a fact. And that is why "polishing" is also important. (And I am saying this as someone who prefer command line over shiny GUI)

                            slannmage

                            Like why can't I just make the gesture bar invisible? It's super annoying.

                            It works the same way as the stock OS. Android 15 requires apps to implement edge-to-edge.

                            Or why does every app cut off the top where the camera is? Why can't I just zoom to fullscreen or just have it working like normal android?

                            No, it works the same ways as the stock OS. Perhaps you changed the the display cutout mode in developer options. Turn off developer options.

                            Why can't I have forward swipe on one side and back on the other like how IOS works and the way it makes the most sense?

                            No, iOS doesn't work that way. You're talking about app specific gestures and comparing them to Android system navigation.

                            Then you add all that with how there isn't any contactless payment options and it's a big bummer to use. I know they cannot control that one.... I thought Android would have at least one alternative option, but I cannot find one other than buying a Garmin watch.

                            No, there are multiple contactless payment options working with GrapheneOS.

                            It's just like why can't they make my life easier in other ways? Hiding the gesture bar, allowing you to select swipe options and sorting the full screen thing cannot be that hard to do.

                            These things already don't work the way you think they do.

                              Matthai It doesn't matter how noisy a tiny minority people are about what they want and it doesn't reflect what the overall community wants. Certain features are disproportionately requested by a tiny minority of power users who will never be satisfied and will never be supportive of the project or development team. We're not going to prioritize a very vocal minority of people who are very entitled and rude towards us over the overall community we have today and the future community that's being built. Most of the community doesn't even use these platforms.

                              Most of our users happily use the OS and appreciate the steadily growing number of improvements on top of what's offered by the Android Open Source Project. If they didn't like it they largely wouldn't be using it. If we want more happy users then we have to provide what future users want in order to use GrapheneOS: near perfect app compatibility, ease of use, an easier initial setup, many more compelling privacy/security improvements to make it worth their time, etc.

                              Recording every single carrier-based call isn't something the vast majority of people want. It's an incredibly niche feature wanted by a tiny minority that's extremely vocal about it. We can spend our limited resources far better on nearly anything else. The way for something like this to be implemented is for someone to start working on things we consider priorities and then implement a good automatic call recording implementation after they've proven themselves. The problem is that hardly anyone wants this, so that's unlikely.

                              The automatic call recording issue has been deleted due to misuse of the issue tracker and has been replaced by https://github.com/GrapheneOS/os-issue-tracker/issues/4740. It will be discussed internally instead of publicly, similar to how we dealt with the charge limit feature. The issue tracker is not a place for people to make complaints and attack the project or developers. If it's used that way, it will be taken away. It's now less likely that the feature will be implemented in the next year or two.

                                  • Xtreix

                                    • Post #20
                                    • Edited

                                    Well, I'm reassured that such a request is only being made by a noisy minority because I hope such a feature never becomes available.

                                    What's more, call recording is already available with the default Telephone app, and you should be very careful when using it according to the laws of your country, GrapheneOS cannot be held responsible for any possible consequences.

                                    Well, I agree, it is noisy minority.

                                    However, my proposal is to "put the ball in their court". So - make a list of requested features (but only those that developers think they can/could be implemented), put a price tag, and then users can vote with their money.

                                    If they want to be noisy, let them be with donations.

                                    Anyway, just an idea. I didn't want to point out specific wishes, my proposal is more general how to deal with this problem.

                                    • de0u replied to this.

                                      • N1b

                                        • Post #22
                                        • Edited

                                        You can always throw suggestions their way. In my experience the important and useful ideas or bug reports get attention. But what I appreciate a lot is that there's no feature bounty or community request page like elsewhere.

                                        99% of us have no idea what we need or what it takes to sustain a highly secure OS. Let the experts do their magic and enjoy the result. Also please let's donate to the project because it's a great privilege that we shouldn't take for granted. If GOS would cease to exist because they lack funding, we'd have to go back to less secure and private solutions.

                                        Matthai

                                        "Users can vote with their money" has also been proposed before, and not adopted.

                                        The project just described (GrapheneOS ) an influence process based on coding, not voting:

                                        The way for something like this to be implemented is for someone to start working on things we consider priorities and then implement a good automatic call recording implementation after they've proven themselves.

                                              de0u
                                              This smells of a “buy a feature” approach.

                                              No wonder it didn't’ fly.

                                                  Blastoidea I think part of the problem is that the voting approach and the bounty approach both by definition shift limited developer time away from issues the developers believe are the most important.

                                                  The "BYOD" (Bring Your Own Developer) approach -- if it goes well -- could result in more developers.

                                                  So they're opposites.