bootloader Time by time I revisit the DNS requests my GrapheneOS makes
Just curious - what method do you use to review DNS requests for your device?
Proton apps pinging Google API + sending reports back after opting out
Which Data is being PING-ed in and out ? Proton should disclose the technical details of what exactly points to Firebase/Googleapis. You are surely aware ProtonMail is not fully encrypted ( the content is scrambled but some metadata is in plain text ) , useful to have a response.
How did you contact Proton? I reported a differenr issue in the ProtonMail app "report an issue" option and they got back to me within a couple of days.
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Hello,
I'm not using any Proton stuff so I'm not checking the apps on my phone. Did you check the Exodus reports of those apps? https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org
To me, Firebase and everything else related, is to be considered as tracking. Period. I'd not use such apps personally, without blocking those connections. Proton using Google stuff is a privacy contradiction, imo.
Edit:
If you want to check (and block) the connections on your phone, you may want to try the app "RethinkDNS".
TRInvictus Hello, thank you for the app suggestion! I'll definitely check that out.
Interesting, Exodus says there is only one tracker in the app, but that is Sentry, not Firebase. Anyway, I completely agree with you. So far I was a heavy Proton user, but now I'm thinking of divorce.
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I'm not sure that the presence of certain libraries in an app necessarily means that their functionality is activated during one's usage of the app. Proton has optional telemetry and crash reporting, and if one does not trust that disabling those toggles does not actually disable the telemetry / crash reporting, I think one should look for alternative apps. I personally don't think Proton disrespects that, and the only way forward that I see in this case is to get a clarification from Proton Support.
Proton's ticketing system has been known to mistakenly auto-mark submitted tickets as spam, sometimes when the customer sends a follow-up email to the original ticket after a brief amount of time. That means that a support agent will not respond in due course. I recommend filing a new ticket, with reference to the old ticket, in the case of no response.
The GrapheneOS account has raised some points about the issues with the results displayed by Exodus Privacy, which I think is of relevance here: https://x.com/GrapheneOS/status/1793051200255848553
UPDATE: Proton staff just reached me back. They were kindly apologized for the delay, but their answer was in short:
this is indeed the expected endpoints in the Android app, and this two google api connection is used for Android push notification.
As in the Proton app alternative routing, push services, notifications, crash reports, telemetry are completely disabled (and also: there is no Google Service on my phone), I asked them more questions if there is a way to opt out/stop these connections. I'll share an update here once there is a reply.
fid02 Thank you for the infos! Meanwhile they answered (see my before comment), but it's good to know.
I agree. My worries here are more about the Proton apps constant connections to Google API, what at the moment looks like it is default, and not sure if there is a way to opt out apart from blocking. Let's see what Proton answers again, but if there is no way to stop these connection, then indeed as you said, I should move on. Sadly, as I really liked Proton, but if their apps are saying hello to Google API every ten minutes and I can't opt out, that is an absolute break up reason for me.
To compare notes:
Inspired by this thread, I used RethinkDNS to monitor traffic for the last 2 days.
Active Proton apps include:
VPN (not using it for internet at the moment though because RethinkDNS takes up that slot)
Mail
Calendar
Drive
I never use push notifications for these apps. Originally, it was because if my belief that it contributes subtle yet harmful impacts on a person's behavior and inner life. Better to check manually, of one's own initiative.
As of recently, I've added a new reason - push notifications are rarely implemented without using Google or Apple's infrastructure. Signal is ok, but very few others are (for me)
Even without push notifications, I am indeed seeing roughly 1x call per day to firebaselogging.googleapis.com, possibly from the proton apps, possibly from the 10x other apps in that profile.
I might do some more testing to isolate the proton apps only and report an update here.
I did find one workaround. It might not be for everybody, but here goes:
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Use this version of RethinkDNS by Celzero (threat model allowing, of course)
https://github.com/celzero/rethink-app
Then generate a Wireguard config file from Proton, instructions here:
https://protonvpn.com/support/wireguard-configurations/
Upload that config file into Celzero's Rethink app.
Block DNS queries to anything that looks like google, while still enjoying (some) benefits of ProtonVPN.
The proton apps continue to work great this way.
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Hope this helps!
Honestly my opinion is underinformed, I only started looking into RethinkDNS a few days ago.
My understanding is that vanilla RethinkDNS can help you monitor network traffic (similar to tools like LittleSnitch, Wireshark, etc) and then block domains that you disagree with (firewall). I think there's more to say about this, but I lack the expertise to type it up. Would appreciate anyone else's input / correction.
The drawback is that it uses up the one and only active VPN slot on your pixel, without actually being a VPN - you don't get the benefits of a VPN that way. From the Rethink site:
It isn't a VPN, at least not yet. Though, it is effective in circumventing internet censorship in most if not all countries. Rethink DNS uses VPN APIs to only route the DNS traffic and not the actual internet traffic.
Rethink DNS isn't a tracker. Rethink DNS logs DNS requests if a user opts-in. Rethink doesn't sell any user information or use it for anything else other than to provide analytics and reports to the user.
After some research, I did find that variant linked in my last post, which allows one to use a Wireguard protocol compatible VPN (like ProtonVPN) and get the benefits of RethinkDNS, all in one app and active VPN slot on your device.
I don't consider this to be as trusted as vanilla Proton VPN, so it will not be my daily driver. But I think its interesting and good for testing like this. Proton's disclaimer:
we strongly recommend using WireGuard via our apps as this is the easiest way to use WireGuard, and it allows you to benefit from many of Proton VPN’s advanced features. For example:
Kill switch and permanent kill switch
Smart protocol
DNS leak protection
Port forwarding (Windows only)
However, Proton VPN’s implementation of WireGuard follows the official open-source specifications for the protocol. This means that advanced users can use any WireGuard client that also matches official specifications to connect to Proton VPN servers using WireGuard
https://protonvpn.com/support/wireguard-configurations/
Its interesting to note that the official GOS site also does speak favorably of RethinkDNS:
If you're using a VPN, we recommended against having a Private DNS server configured. If you want to filter traffic while using a VPN, use a VPN service app able to do both such as RethinkDNS. Private DNS also interacts strangely with multiple profiles since each profile has their own VPN configuration but Private DNS is global. Either leave Private DNS on the default Automatic mode or set it to disabled when using VPNs.
zzz thanks for that. I actually got as far as all that myself, yesterday I set it up so I can use proton with it. It seems to work very well. I wasn't sure about the trust side of things, but its cool to see it mentioned directly from the GrapheneOS website so thanks for the link.
I use Headscale (Tailscale) to access my self hosted stuff - so until I can find a way to use it with this then it can't be my weapon of choice as of yet. Which is a shame because the lulu/little snitch functionality is pretty cool.
zzz As of recently, I've added a new reason - push notifications are rarely implemented without using Google or Apple's infrastructure. Signal is ok, but very few others are (for me)
Even without push notifications, I am indeed seeing roughly 1x call per day to firebaselogging.googleapis.com, possibly from the proton apps, possibly from the 10x other apps in that profile.
Push notifications / meta data is the new "gold" in tracking, since eg. messengers encrypt stuff. Push is the new "way to go" to track such stuff.
Firebase has tons of functions. However, its all Google, and I'm thus blocking it consequently, for those few apps I depend on with no alternative.
fid02 The GrapheneOS account has raised some points about the issues with the results displayed by Exodus Privacy, which I think is of relevance here:
Check the manifest of an app. There you see what stuff it uses (receivers, services, etc.). If there is an entry about eg. Firebase, you can pretty much be sure that it is used. An app may let opt you out, but loaded stuff still can access the internet, do RPC, by itself...
Apps like "AppManager" or "LibChecker" (from Github or F-Droid) can help you check such stuff too. And RethinkDNS lets you check (and block) the net traffic on-device if you haven't eg. a home lab to do such on a dedicated device/firewall.
bootloader Damn that thread gave me a heart attack, thank god they are doing the bare minimum of those requests xD
May I ask what you are using to block the metadata collection from things like firebase?
Goatey523 Damn that thread gave me a heart attack, thank god they are doing the bare minimum of those requests xD
Every single of those requests is waving flags and flares, "hey Google, here I am, again"
treenutz68 May I ask what you are using to block the metadata collection from things like firebase?
Metadata collection from push notifications cannot be blocked as far as I know, you'd have to live without pushs to do that.
I use RethinkDNS to put those apps to "isolation mode". That blocks everything that is not whitelisted, means nothing can be connected by default by that app. Then, start the app and check the connections log. There you'll see the domains and IPs the app tries to connect. Whitelist the domains (or IPs) that are needed to run the app, eg. the domain of your bank for your banking app. That should make the app work, and everything else stays blocked by default. I prefer this approach vs. "badness enumeration" where you allow/trust everything by default and specifically block certain domains (the badnesses). Furthermore, I do not allow DNS bypass in RethinkDNS, as apps may work around DNS (domain names) by contacting IPs directly. (eg. Whatsapp telemetry once had a specific domain, that everyone was blocking, now they use tons of IPs that are contacted directly, DNS bypass. Google is doing the same, they contact tons of IPs directly.) That way you can make your app work by allowing the minimum, everything else is blocked. If you want to preserve push notifications, you'll have to whitelist firebase, mtalk.google.xxx, and others. I don't do that to keep as much privacy as possible for those few apps I depend on, but come with all kind of trackers sadly (banking apps, local post office and such things with no alternatives). RethinkDNS is great, it allows lot of fine tuning, but you have to know how to set it up properly. And you can use Wireguard too (VPN). That's the price you pay for privacy when giving up functionality like push and having additional efforts, but privacy itself is the prize you win :-)
TRInvictus RethinkDNS is great, it allows lot of fine tuning, but you have to know how to set it up proper
I have just started looking at this app. It does look great, but youre right, one does need to know how to set it up properly. Do you know of any good guides to that end?