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All I can tell you is, I am one of those privileged to use Graphene OS (while stock lasts). I would not change it for the world, even though AOSP keyboard gives me grief and that is a fact.
Using GrapheneOS as a base for a consumer product
Blastoidea You presently have users?
I may be confused.
No, we are still in the prototyping faze but we have a pre order for 200 phones.
pixpot
Are you in a position to define “affordable” at this time?
de0u I am skeptical that it is possible to have SIM cards that will be recognized by cellular carriers without being registered to "any person or company". If that is possible, can you provide an example of some company or organization that is offering those today?
It's absolutely possible. Despite the lack of direct identification, mobile network operators still allow anonymous prepaid SIM cards to access the internet and communicate over cellular networks. The network identifies the SIM card based on its unique International Mobile Subscriber Identity (IMSI) and the authentication keys stored on the SIM card. The IMSI is not directly tied to the user's identity during the purchase process, making it more challenging to trace back to an individual.
We have a source (it's not hard to find) on how to get these sim cards. I will not post the source on this public forum.
Blastoidea Are you in a position to define “affordable” at this time
Yes, I can try. But it depends on a couple of things.
The phone we choose (Pixel 4 costs about 200 USD)
The amount of time required to prepare each phone
Out target price is around 500-600 USD
pixpot
Thanks.
Thanks for all the replies. Eve though I tried in my original post to define what we are doing I'll do a summarize pit project and business model here:
We are building a phone that needs to be as secure, anonymous and privacy oriented as possible using small means and a limited budget. We aim to make everything as cheap and easy for the end user as possible.
The phone will be using a custom security hardened version of an OS (hopefully GrapheneOS)
The stripped down OS will include only one app, a custom version of Signal and will be using the official Signal infrastructure.
Once we have a working prototype we will buy cheap phones in bulk and flash them with our custom build and then sell them to consumers anonymously.
I came here to see if I could find some advice on if using GrapheneOS was a good fit for our product and in my OP I asked som more technical questions that I hoped to bet some answers to.
Im also happy to answer any question you might have (or even to collaborate). We do have funding and a business plan in place.
pixpot Pixel 4 costs about 200 USD
Pixel 4 firmware support is over, so anybody who would buy a locked-down Pixel 4 would be buying something running firmware with vulnerabilities that won't be tracked or fixed.
pixpot Despite the lack of direct identification, mobile network operators still allow anonymous prepaid SIM cards to access the internet and communicate over cellular networks. The network identifies the SIM card based on its unique International Mobile Subscriber Identity (IMSI) and the authentication keys stored on the SIM card. The IMSI is not directly tied to the user's identity during the purchase process, making it more challenging to trace back to an individual.
An earlier claim was "not registered to any person or company", which is quite different from "not directly tied to the user's identity" / "more challenging to trace back to an individual".
If I were to purchase a phone from your company with an "anonymous" SIM in it, I could choose to assume that your company hadn't recorded which SIM card you shipped with my phone, but personally I wouldn't make such an assumption.
Meanwhile, though indeed there are lots of people selling "anonymous SIM cards" online, making all sorts of claims (including "GPS spoofing", LOL), that doesn't make those claims accurate. This piece might be of interest: Anonymous SIM card scam, especially the "Anonymous SIM cards are really anonymous?" part.
At some point if your company does ship "anonymous SIM cards" to your customers, the customers (and anybody publishing a review of the product) will discover who issued the SIM cards, and be able to evaluate claims like "anonymous", "not registered to any person or company", "more challenging to trace back to an individual", etc. But a claim that your company can provide SIM cards that would shield "journalists under repressive governments" is an extraordinary claim that calls for extraordinary evidence.
The company seems to be targeting Sky Global's market, or am I mistaken?
That's a bit risky. I'd say the biggest risk is being dragged to legal complications by unsavory clients if authorities figure that SIM scheme of yours means you're aiding your clients in their activities.
As for the technical side, some further considerations:
- using Starlink instead of cell towers? Or bundle a gli router with the phone.
- removing the phone's camera & microphone as Snowden does, only allowing verbal communication by USB devices
- ...not by Bluetooth because every android and iOS phone is a bt tracking device for other phones.
- provide users with safe charging cables (USB cables with the data wires removed) to reduce the attack surface, even though GOS has USB attack mitigation.
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pixpot Since we are not allowing users to install any other apps this should not be an issue right?
Yes, but the Pre-installed apps need to work without Native code debugging.
pixpot Think of the product as strictly a secure communication device where users can send messages (and use voice in a future update).
Nice
pixpot if you want affordable and secure, you pretty much can't look beyond the recent Pixel a series (6a or 7a at the moment), as they guarantee 5 years or security updates after release and also have the Tensor security core. Even the pixel 5 that you suggested will run out in a few months. You can check this table to see which devices make sense to use: https://grapheneos.org/faq#device-lifetime
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de0u If I were to purchase a phone from your company with an "anonymous" SIM in it, I could choose to assume that your company hadn't recorded which SIM card you shipped with my phone, but personally I wouldn't make such an assumption
We won't record anything, not even your name. If you assume we somehow investigate you before selling you a phone to then register you to a sim card/phone then you are wrong. We don't record any customer data.
de0u Meanwhile, though indeed there are lots of people selling "anonymous SIM cards" online, making all sorts of claims [that are not] accurate. This piece might be of interest: Anonymous SIM card scam, especially the "Anonymous SIM cards are really anonymous?" part.
The sim cards ARE anonymous, no name or ID is required to buy or use them. As for the claim in your link that
But when it comes to the law enforcement agencies that will want to find a prepaid ("anonymous") SIM card user's identity, the situation changes radically: no chance to hide your identity. Whether using the network operator or through lawful interception systems, finding the identity of any prepaid SIM user is a matter of a few days or even hours.
That is complete nonsense. "No chance to hide your Identity"?
Please explain how anyone (law enforcement for example) can find the identity of a user with a phone using anonymous sim and a VPN to communicate via the Signal app.
de0u A claim that your company can provide SIM cards that would shield "journalists under repressive governments" is an extraordinary claim that calls for extraordinary evidence.
That depends on many variables, both technical and behavioral. It also depends on the definition of "shields". But I don't think the claim is extraordinary.
If a user is:
Using a phone with the aforementioned features (anonymous sim, VPN, Signal, automatic "airplane mode" every time the screen is turned of, random Mac address for each connection,etc)
Not falling into a pattern of allways using the phone in the same place at the same time.
i think it does a great job of "shielding" users to a very high degree. Of course, if a governments/agency deems you so dangerous that they are willing to spend millions in technology and manpower, not any communication method in the world is ultimately safe.
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Hb1hf The company seems to be targeting Sky Global's market, or am I mistaken?
Yes. That is not our goal at all. The objective is simply to provide a device that is safe, anonymous and private as possible at an affordable price.
That's a bit risky. I'd say the biggest risk is being dragged to legal complications by unsavory clients if authorities figure that SIM scheme of yours means you're aiding your clients in their activities.
We are not aiding anyone in illegal activity. Are manufacturers of ski masks aiding bank robbers?
As for the technical side, some further considerations:
using Starlink instead of cell towers? Or bundle a gli router with the phone.
Worth investigating. Thanks!
removing the phone's camera & microphone as Snowden does, only allowing verbal communication by USB devices
...not by Bluetooth because every android and iOS phone is a bt tracking device for other phones.
Camera, microphone, Bluetooth and gps will be physically disconnected before the phone is shipped.
provide users with safe charging cables (USB cables with the data wires removed) to reduce the attack surface, even though GOS has USB attack mitigation.
The phone will not ship with a charging cable. We will rely on GOS's USB attack mitigation
pixpot Please explain how anyone (law enforcement for example) can find the identity of a user with a phone using anonymous sim and a VPN to communicate via the Signal app.
I think what de0u means and elaborated yesterday is that cellular networks are fundamentally tracking networks. Since you want your users to utilize mobile data for Signal messages, they will be trackable via triangulation any time they use it. Law enforcement, if motivated enough, could simply wait for the users to turn off Airplane mode, track them down and arrest them. They could also force mobile carriers to hand over logs and figure out where your users regularly and where they sleep.
There's simply no way around it: If the users' threat model involves hiding from three letter agencies or other well-resourced law enforcement, they should not use mobile data and operate their phone only in Airplane mode (with occasional WiFi when using signal). Using a mobile router that allows shuffling IMEIs around and buy a new SIM card regularly like Hb1hf suggested (if I understood them correctly) will make the users harder to target, but still: As soon as a SIM card connects to a network, it will be trackable.