911 Emergency Location Override by LEA

H7oUt

Is it normal to dial 911 and receve a location override request that is automatically accepted on GOS? Is it be design?

fid02

H7oUt location override request

Could you quote the specific message you received when you dialed 911?

someone27281

Ok let's back off a little. So the OP called 911 or equivalent, and then there was a location override request that GOS automatically accepted, right?

Here's my understanding:

Scenario 1. User calls emergency willingly. That action from the USER triggers something in GOS that override the location settings. This override can ONLY be initiated by user by the fact of dialing an emergency number

If this is what happened, it's good. It's one way override, triggered by user i.e; it can't be triggered by a remote cellular operator.

Scenario 2: User calls emergency, which GOS handled like any other call. Then the emergency operator triggered something remotely that override the location setting on the phone. This may be a "feature" on the phone to "assist" emergency

THIS is bad, since user setting is overridden remotely by cellular network that should be UNTRUSTED. This is not as same as just passive cellular tracking, they can change the state of the OS remotely is BAD. In this case fix should be TOP PRIORITY. This is basically backdoor.

Now we need an expert to determine which scenario is right.

H7oUt

I didn't, but one of my family members did. I didn't capture exactly what is was, but a notification about location override came and accepted automatically. I performed tactical evaluation of the situation via reasonable assessment (in other words I totally freaked out) and wiped the phone...

fid02

H7oUt I didn't, but one of my family members did. I didn't capture exactly what is was, but a notification about location override came and accepted automatically. I performed tactical evaluation of the situation via reasonable assessment (in other words I totally freaked out) and wiped the phone...

Were you worried that the emergency services would be able to determine the phone's position?

They would be able to do that simply through the phone connecting to the cellular network. Where I live, the emergency services triangulates your position in this way, and gets a pretty precise location fix (down to a few metres) within a few minutes. Someone who works with emergency services in my area told me this.

It's normal for Android to tell you that certain features, such as airplane mode, will be disabled when you call an emergency number.

H7oUt I performed tactical evaluation of the situation via reasonable assessment (in other words I totally freaked out) and wiped the phone...

That seems wholy unnecessary. What was the concern here? That the emergency services had hacked your phone?

fid02

H7oUt

https://github.com/GrapheneOS/os-issue-tracker/issues/1174

K8y

H7oUt a notification about location override came and accepted automatically. I performed tactical evaluation of the situation via reasonable assessment (in other words I totally freaked out) and wiped the phone...

Did this happen (for OP too) on GrapheneOS or stock Android?

If on Graphene, then all any "emergency" official needs to do is connect with your phone...

NetRunner88

It is a normal behaviour for stock Android and iOS.
When you dial emergency numbers it activates everything like microphones camera and position
In Europe at least. That's what a friend at an emergency dispatch told me. I only trust the location sharing..

Wikipedia
Since 2020, emergency responders have been able to better locate callers who dial 911 on their cellphones from indoors as the U.S. wireless industry improved caller-location for the majority of such calls. The "heightened location accuracy," available to supporting networks and handsets, can find callers through nearby devices connected to Wi-Fi or Bluetooth that are logged with a specific location in a special emergency-services database.[32]

fid02

K8y If on Graphene, then all any "emergency" official needs to do is connect with your phone...

I'm sorry, what is being hinted at here?

K8y

fid02 that if this happens on graphene, then location can be revealed despite settings.

Any time auto overrides like this can happen, it opens door to "emergency" tracking.

Were these examples in stock or grapheme?

fid02

K8y that if this happens on graphene, then location can be revealed despite settings.

Any time auto overrides like this can happen, it opens door to "emergency" tracking.

I still don't understand what you think is happening here. Every time a phone connects to a cellular tower, that phone's location on the network will be visible to the cellular provider. If the emergency services have access to real-time data of which phones connect to which towers, provided by the cellular network provider, then the emergency services will have that phone's approximate location within minutes.

Is that surprising?

The OS could assist that by providing more accurate location data. Not sure you looked at the Github issue I linked to?

If the concern is that the cellular provider will be able to track your phone's movements, then don't connect your phone to a cellular network. If the concern is that an emergency service operator will know your phone's location, and if you consider that concern to be bigger than an imminent threat to someone's health or life, then don't call emergency services.

Personally, I very much want an emergency service operator to know my exact location if I call them.

K8y Any time auto overrides like this can happen, it opens door to "emergency" tracking

The OS is programmed to override certain things when the user enters an emergency number. Not clear what "opens door to "emergency" tracking" means.

K8y

fid02 override certain things when the user enters an emergency number

Does the code say if an "emergency" official can call your graphene phone the same happens? If so then once connected, the privacy settings could be auto overridden, it seems. The code probably just recognizes contact with "Emergency" officials.

I too value safety, but have seen this get abused (of course always in the name of "safety" and "emergency").

There should be an option to either have this extra "safety" feature or not for Graphene users. People lived without it for many years, and can continue just fine without it now. Besides if they really want it they could just get a regular pixel.

DeletedUser127

K8y People lived without it for many years, and can continue just fine without it now

This is not a safety feature, but a reality how cellular network works. Your IMSI (phone number), IMEI (device) are known, location can be triangulated based on your position relative to cellular towers (they don't even have to be the same network, they all collect your subscriber info).

fid02

K8y Does the code say if an "emergency" official can call your graphene phone the same happens? If so then once connected, the privacy settings could be auto overridden, it seems. The code probably just recognizes contact with "Emergency" officials.

You don't understand how cellular tracking works. Any entity with access to real-time data of devices connected to the cellular network will be able to determine a device's position from just having the phone number. It doesn't matter which mobile OS you are using. It's not clear if you made an attempt at understanding my previous reply, or if you simply skimmed through it. Cellular tracking is well known and information on it can be found online.

I too value safety, but have seen this get abused (of course always in the name of "safety" and "emergency").

What have you seen abused, exactly? I'm sorry, but I don't find it constructive to be asking for information on tracking techniques in one paragraph, and in the next making a vague assertion about tracking abuses (which tracking? How does the alleged tracking work?) being conducted by some entity (which entity?).

There should be an option to either have this extra "safety" feature or not for Graphene users. People lived without it for many years, and can continue just fine without it now. Besides if they really want it they could just get a regular pixel.

Is it possible that you could re-read my previous reply?

If you are worried about position location through Advanced Mobile Location, then clearly you did not look at the GitHub issue I linked: https://github.com/GrapheneOS/os-issue-tracker/issues/1174

Advanced Mobile Location is NOT implemented in GrapheneOS.

The whole concern is if "emergency" figures can override location (and other?) settings automatically as described in OP's case, then theoretically they could once connected with you, if they ping or call your phone...

The emergency service did NOT override anything in OP's case. The operating system enables certain settings based on the USER doing something (entering an emergency number into the dialer and calling it).

K8y

03046512336612478855 Real personal anecdote

Thank you for sharing this. That's quite a name you have!

DeletedUser127 Your IMSI (phone number), IMEI (device) are known, location can be triangulated based on your position relative to cellular towers

But not if I'm in airplane mode, especially with Grapheme, right?

The whole concern is if "emergency" figures can override location (and other?) settings automatically as described in OP's case, then theoretically they could once connected with you, if they ping or call your phone...

03046512336612478855

Real personal anecdote -

US jurisdiction
GOS insralled, Location permission is off, using a physical SIM from well known US carrier
Called 911 for a real situation
Operator immediately asks for location / address, says they do not have it.
Call concludes after some time
After call, I find a notification from the OS: "Emergency services was denied Location access"

In this case, it appears that local police did not have access to SIM triangulation via 911, only OS-level location permission, and GOS successfully denied it to them.

DeletedUser127

K8y https://eena.org/our-work/eena-special-focus/advanced-mobile-location/

I don't think this applies to GrapheneOS, especially if you don't use Location.

DeletedUser237

someone27281 EMS operators do not trigger anything.. The advanced location thingies works automatically when the emergency call is connected. Do you really think they have time to run scripts or whatever during such call especially that it often happen they need to calm down the caller?

I don't want to sound rude but some people here are borderline paranoid and don't understand how the tech works..

someone27281

DeletedUser237

I'm not saying EMS operator spy on people. I'm saying if the tech exists, it WILL be abused. One of the base ideas of GOS is treating cellular as UNTRUSTED. Being able to remotely trigger anything, even having possibility of it it BAD.

Also only if scenario 2 is real. Scenario 1 is good as far as I'm concerned.

Basically it comes down to if there's any message or protocol that comes FROM cellular that can change the OS state against user intent.

@GrapheneOS

someone27281

Can someone provide an update on it?

fid02

someone27281 Can someone provide an update on it?

It is possible to use a search engine to obtain relevant information about what AOSP does when a user calls an emergency number – including official Android documentation and notes in the source code. Additionally, one may read official documentation on Emergency Location Service, which requires privileged Google Play and is enabled by default in stock Pixel OS and other Android variants with privileged Google Play but not included in AOSP and GOS. One may also search the web for scientific research on these features, and see if any security researchers have raised concerns.

I compiled some notes based on my usage of Duckduckgo and code source searches and might post about it here if I feel like it.