Questions regarding how Snowden would use a GrapheneOS device

b3_k1nd_rw1nd

something I am curious about with Snowden's endorsement of grapheneOS in 2019 is that he mentioned he'd

de-solder the microphones

keep the radios (cellular, WiFi, and Bluetooth) turned off

wouldn't use WiFi at home, because global maps of every wireless access point's unique ID—including yours—are free and constantly updated. I would use Ethernet;

I wonder if anyone here knows why he'd de-solder the mic and keep the WiFi off at home and would keep it off everywhere else when he would not need it?

I get the reason for most everything else he is saying but those 3 statement I don't quite understand cause if the phone is de-googled and you can be very precise about which apps have the permission to use mic, I don't get the problem with the microphone. Unless he would de-solder the mic, not to protect against Google, but rather against a hacker (either govt sanctioned or otherwise)?

Although I definitely do not understand what he is talking about with regards to:

because global maps of every wireless access point's unique ID—including yours—are free and constantly updated

user

You're not considering Snowden extreme threat model.

b3_k1nd_rw1nd

user what makes you say that? I made an educated guess about the mic issue given his threat is a literal targeted attack by the U.S. govt but wondered if anyone had better ideas and I just don't understand the reasoning for the second or what third one even means.

unwat

Talking about Snowden this seems like meta hypothetical three letter agencies' capabilities.

Hypothetical worst-case scenarios like backdoors, nationstate adversaries, intelligence agencies or "Three Letter Agencies" and their capabilities. This type of discussion just ends up being GrapheneOS versus your imagination. Code has limits, your imagination doesn't, and it's not useful to threat model against an adversary whose capabilities are hypothetical and unlimited.

By the way, me citing the rules isn't me trying to play mod or put anyone in their place. I hope I don't come off that way, and if I do, I apologize. I just think this one in particular is well-worded, so I quoted it.

No doubt Snowden knew things, but I'd bet being in his situation has made him a bit paranoid, so he might take some steps that are, frankly, not worth taking, even in his position having pissed off the US Government. The fact is Android is used on millions of devices around the world, is consistently updated, and is (as far as anyone knows) secure enough. Also, security researchers around the world test Android for vulnerabilities. There's a reason three letter agencies go to Google or Apple or whatever to collect data instead of trying to hack phones. Considering Android uses secure boot, the OS can't be tampered with, which leaves hypothetical Zero-days and/or hypothetical backdoored hardware.

So, in closing, I wouldn't bother caring what Snowden would do, or take anything he would do as good advice for securing one's own info. But it is kind of funny.

unwat

Whoops, forgot something and can't edit.

The wifi thing, I think, makes no sense at all. Any phone can scan wifi networks in its vicinity. I really don't think a phone needs to be connected to a network for that info to be collected by another phone using another network. This is why GOS suggests we allow Google Play Services have access to nearby devices and enable wifi and bluetooth scanning to help Google determine a location.

AtriumCompound

In all probability, it is impossible for anyone without a high level undiscovered exploit to access the microphone or camera on a GOS phone when it is disabled in software however it is POSSIBLE that the NSA or CIA or whatever, which spend hundreds of millions of dollars researching and discovering these exploits, have found something. Anything connected to the internet can be hacked, and if you have functionally unlimited time and manpower you're going to find a way. It is extremely unlikely that the average user would ever be targeted by something like this, but Snowden is being targeted by the most powerful country in the world. For him, anything that could possibly make him more secure makes sense.

ve3jlg

AtriumCompound Anything connected to the internet can be hacked, and if you have functionally unlimited time and manpower you're going to find a way

citation, please.

evalda

Suggestions in the original post make a lot of sense for maximizing security and privacy. Not sure why they are being questioned. Does an average user need something like that? Absolutely no. Do they help to raise the security bar? Yes, of cause.

All radio-based stacks like Bluetooth, WiFi and Cellular are extremely complex. Which makes them vulnerable to bugs that can be (or already) discovered and can be exploited.

Ethernet cable connection is not perfect or bug-free by any means but it's a magnitude order less complex than something like 5G. It makes perfect sense to use Ethernet connection if your thread model requires it or you don't need to convenience of WiFi or mobile data.

newbie24689

Snowden likely remaqins a very desirable target for a number of agencies (including his Russian hosts).

From https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/jul/18/what-is-pegasus-spyware-and-how-does-it-hack-phones:
"...It has the capability to infect billions of phones running either iOS or Android operating systems..."

"...Where neither spear-phishing nor zero-click attacks succeed, Pegasus can also be installed over a wireless transceiver located near a target, or, according to an NSO brochure, simply manually installed if an agent can steal the target’s phone..."

So Snowden's threat model is among the very high; and disabling radios makes sense.

For me, being targeted by very expensive Pegasus seems unlikely. But leading-edge technology like Pegasus probably exists elsewhere, and will eventually proliferate to the point that the 15-yr old next door, or across the room at a public hotspot, will use it for fun and to impress his friends (who are also out trying to ring up "scores" of hacked phones). All speculation; the race goes on.

matchboxbananasynergy

newbie24689 and will eventually proliferate to the point that the 15-yr old next door, or across the room at a public hotspot, will use it for fun and to impress his friends (who are also out trying to ring up "scores" of hacked phones). All speculation; the race goes on.

I don't think that's necessarily true. These organizations stockpile 0-days and offer a very expensive service based on them. The moment those 0-days are made public, they can likely be quickly patched, which might break the entire exploit chain that makes compromising these phones possible. Of course, they can probably find another to do it in time, and probably already have multiple fallbacks, but if the 15 year old next door knows how to do it, so will the people responsible for patching the vulnerabilities, and they will do so.

newbie24689

matchboxbananasynergy Agreed.
However, there is a window of vulnerability in that timeline during which the script kiddies are active. This before the vulnerability is discovered; a patch devised, tested, and finally distributed. On some Android phones, this period is very long, or forever.
Thanks to GOS folks, quality patching and updating is a very high priority quickly accomplished; this even if the hardened GOS already resists the hack because of its hardened compilation :-)