• Off Topic

  • Thoughts on selling of Pixels with preinstalled GrapheneOS

I am not attempting to use this forum as a platform to sell any product. This post will not include links or information related to purchasable products.

Aside from the obvious op-sec risk of having someone else configure your phone, I want to know what people's thoughts are on the practice of offering Pixel phones for sale with preinstalled GrapheneOS from an online store front. I sell other privacy-focused hardware items, and have had these requested by people who are not technically savvy or have no interest in learning how to create them on their own. I've found other store fronts offering these for insane prices (400% over cost of phone). If I offered this, my margin would be $100 over the cost of the phone. Would I be a parasite on the FOSS community for this?

    idontknow If you mow another persons lawn for a fee they are happy to pay, and the end result is they are happy with the exchange, is that not a mutually beneficial transaction? They may HATE mowing their own grass in hot summer, I sure do. Sounds like an equitable exchange to me, no? I wonder what others think. I don't always see things as others do.

    EDIT: I remember meeting with a small local I.T. guy who did secure laptops etc, and charged to install GOS, but said he donates $50 of his fee back to GOS for each phone he flashed. Good for him, customer AND for GOS?

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        • Post #4
        • Edited

        Honestly, I do not see a reason to charge extra for an installation of GrapheneOS since GrapheneOS costs nothing for the person installing it. Additionally, the installation is very simple using the web installer even for a non-technical person. However, I do not know what extra costs you might have to pay (like shipping) so maybe the 100$ extra would be justified.

        I know Nitrokey offer their Nitrophones which are pixel devices with GrapheneOS pre-installed and charge a premium (715 Euros for Pixel 7a) which I think is definitely unjustified. As far as I can tell from their website, this is what they offer extra:

        "In addition, we bear the risk of technical defects during production and still sell the NitroPhone with standard warranty. In addition, we offer technical customer support. Optionally, we remove microphones, sensors and cameras from the NitroPhone."

        The only time I think charging extra for GrapheneOS pre-loaded phones would be okay is if it is a bulk order for a company that wants to use secure phones and do not have the time to flash GrapheneOS on a large number of devices. Other than that, I believe individuals should just flash it themselves.

        These are my two cents on the matter.

          [deleted] These are good points. I guess the $100 value would come from:

          • sourcing the RIGHT phone (there are two types of "unlocked" pixels and only one works)
          • someone to reach out to if you have questions
          • shipping and handling
          • performing any extra configurations the end user desires (installing navigation, VPN, email, browsers that the user wants)

          And on top of that, I would include a link to a video in the product listing showing users how to install GrapheneOS themselves.

          Overhead:
          Factory unlocked unopened pixels are around $180-200 on Ebay. Configuration could take between 30-1 hr depending on what they want. Shipping would be around $20 (Including gas and time to visit the post office.) Responding to inquiries is anybody's best guess, I'm selling to a non-tech market so I'm expecting to do some hand-holding. I'm also assuming the risk of returned inventory within a 30-day period.

              VAULT My thoughts as well. If they're informed about the product, the ease to install, and still want to pay the money, then I personally could sleep at night. It wouldn't be useful to tell them "it's easy bro", and it wouldn't be practical for me to hand out free phones. I do donate to the GOS project because I daily drive it.

                idontknow Factory unlocked unopened pixels are around $180-200 on Ebay.

                Which models (expiring when?)?

                    idontknow

                    I've operated a small online business in the past selling bicycle parts so I knew a bit about online marketing, website creation etc. With that business I put myself through university and grad school with zero debt and money in the bank. I ended that business after my suppliers dried up.

                    Since I had extra time over Covid I decided to create a business pretty much exactly as you have described using many of the markups and services you already mentioned. I secured 50 pixel phones from a reputable wholesale refurbisher. The phones looked brand new.

                    I created a marketing and information / privacy tutorial website, created a Youtube presence with various phone and setup tutorials, set up a social media presence etc. Some of my Youtube videos received over 35,000 views. Initially I was only asking a top up of $125 for what I paid for the phones and what those same models (in worst shape) would be selling for on eBay. This was all before the GOS web installer worked well (IMO). Sold a few but sales were not great. The customers I did have were very satisfied and said I offered the best customer service they've experienced in a long time.

                    Every month that went by, the end of life date for updates for the phones came closer. Eventually I gave up and sold them on eBay for maybe a $25 to $35 markup (after fees). I'm a seller on there with a 1000+ feedbacks and a 100% satisfaction rating. There were other guys selling on eBay at the time for more money but I never saw their phones moving much. Not sure what happened to them.

                    After all the work I did to set this up, it would of been better for me to to get a second job delivering pizzas in the evening. With the profit I made and the hours I put in, it was maybe $1.25 / hr.

                    I'm not saying don't do it but unless you have good marketing knowledge, are willing to risk some money, can identify and target a ready audience, and want to play a long game, then I would say there are easier ways to make money.

                        I did really long time considering to buy a 6Pro without front camera, microphone etc from Nitrokey.
                        Because of the long waiting time they answering my questions by mail, plus the price they asking did me buy a new 6 Pro, updated it, opened 2 screens, one with GrapheneOS, one with Side of Buritos, and did it myself.
                        But I hear many good things about the German Nitrokey, and for have the choice to buy a Pixel with GrapheneOS out of the box is I think a answer for some people, search this forum how many ask about how to, or have trouble or worst. As a noob I was afraid do something wrong as a first timer, In that time I didn't know if I should stay, or back to iPhone so the cheapest option with a little risk was to do it myself.
                        On the secondhand online market in my country people ask €50,- for download GrapheneOS, as a company do it for you asking €100,- is a fair price, even without them pay GrapheneOS. It is normal to pay for help with your hardware/ software, how many bring their laptop with small issues what some think might be free, for example who is still pay for it, Hunter, he can tell you all about it!
                        For the love of GrapheneOS, a support is nice and needed, just not with reason that GrapheneOS is free.

                        Main issue is because you can't verify that the GrapheneOS is real. Though it does have the Auditor app so I guess there's that.

                        paweljott There is "unlocked" which means you can use it with any carrier, and there's "factory unlocked" which allows you to install the custom bootloader.

                            Max-Zorin This is so much great info and better than I could have hoped for. I'd be making these to order with basically no inventory no overhead from marketing. I pitched this on reddit and was called "scummy".

                                de0u I look for factory unlocked, unopened Pixel 4A phones. Not used, opened unused, or "carrier unlocked".

                                • de0u replied to this.

                                    I don't mean to be discouraging, but one of the worst things someone selling devices with GrapheneOS can do is sell near EOL or EOL devices to people. Nobody should be selling something older than a Pixel 6 right now, and that's cutting it close (https://grapheneos.org/faq#recommended-devices should be one's guide on which devices would make sense for this).

                                    The reason for that is twofold. You're selling a phone to someone with the promise of it being secure when it cannot be past EOL. When GrapheneOS stops providing extended support releases for it (which are not complete, cannot be complete and do not make the device secure), those people are left stranded with an insecure device and without the technical knowhow to know what to do about it and what it means.

                                    The second reason is admittedly more "selfish", but those same people may reach out to us, frustrated, because the phone they bought is no longer receiving updates, and why is that?

                                    It's completely fine and allowed to sell devices with GrapheneOS provided you clearly explain that you're a third party and not affiliated with GrapheneOS, and that you do not modify the OS (as if the OS is modified, it is no longer GrapheneOS, and shouldn't be called that).

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                                    • Post #17
                                    • Edited

                                    idontknow and there's "factory unlocked" which allows you to install the custom bootloader

                                    No, It does not allow you to install an "custom bootloader".

                                      This post has given me inspiration for future projects, so first of all thank you:) I'm thinking about offering to install GrapheneOS for people in my region who aren't confident they can do so themselves. I might include buying the phone anonymously and initially guiding them into a secure & working setup if they want. I'd like this to be very accessible, so at most I'd accept voluntary donations and give 50 % to the project.

                                      Of course, this would require strict security. This being a non-profit service and me not being rich, what would be the least expensive setup for this?

                                      Under no circumstances would I want to expose the people coming to me for help to greater risk than required. Although I'm not Ed, I don't have a completely average threat model and neither would some of them. I'd need to ensure reasonably well that an infection of (some of) my devices couldn't spread unnoticed.

                                      idontknow

                                      I wouldn't pay attention to Reddit comments like that.

                                      The way I look at it, I was providing a service. For some people time is money and the time for them to secure a proper phone, learn about GOS, setting up their computer with the proper drivers to install it and setting up the phone is a significant cost in time. This is time they could be making more money (than it would cost to hire someone to do the above) or could spend doing other things like spending time with family, or recreational activities. I know a few directors and executives at my employer and they work 60 to75 hours a week. They use all sorts of services a "regular person" could do themselves (house cleaners, grocery delivery, vehicle cleaning and maintenance etc.) because their time is more important than doing these menial tasks in addition to their job. And it's not just executives that use these services, a lot of "regular people" do as well for their own reason.

                                      Many of the naysayers look at the situation from their own perspective. "Well I bought a phone and installed GOS myself, why would anyone hire someone to do that?". Might sound harsh to say this, but those people have a limited view and likely will never be entrepreneurial.

                                      They themselves probably use many services (go to restaurants, hire a plumber etc) that someone else with different skills could easily turn the table and say the same thing (well why don't they just cook food themselves, well why don''t they just unclog the drain themselves).

                                      I think if you keep your overhead down, and start out slow then you could see where it goes. You might also start out consulting people on how to set up GOS on their own phones and installing their GOS devices for privacy. There is a lot of research involved in setting up a GOS device to be private, secure and everyday functional for the needs of an average person.

                                      And like @matchboxbananasynergy said, make you sure you are clear with your clients you in no way represent or are directly involved with the GOS project, are not involved with developing the OS and are only a 3rd party installer. Any support would have to be done by you during the support period you define, and not the GOS team.

                                      Good luck with this!

                                        Please be sure to inform customers when firmware support will end for whichever devices you install.

                                        idontknow I'm one of the people you describe who does not have the knowledge to confidently do an install myself.
                                        I would be very happy to purchase a product that already has the install on it. But I agree with you that the prices being asked a far too high. I have seen prices that are twice the cost of the phone.
                                        I do think the a reasonable fee for the time and effort is required. Also some money should be kicked backed to the developers of GOS. $50 sounds fair and maybe $100 for install. So about $150/over the cost of the device.
                                        Also of note is how low the prices are from companies like Verizon.
                                        I was able to get my P 7a for $299 which is the best price I have seen by far.