Pixel 11 doesn't meet the GrapheneOS security standards and may be skipped

FunkTastic

Tylorw1 GOS will have to change its marketing strategy a bit with different device security tiers and make the explanations clear, but I think it would be effective.

This.

DeletedUser1111

Tylorw1 was a member of the custom ROM community

I hope you didn't mean GrapheneOS

Developer-Dude

Tylorw1 The main new probable Graphene users are going to be Pixel 11 users. This is its greatest possible growth market that is missed out on.

Not necessarily. Lots of new users start out with an 8 series, to see if they even like GrapheneOS. And the 10 series is basically just an 11.

Tylorw1 It's a hard sell to tell people to buy an older device for more than a cheaper new one. Especially with a simple Google you see many complaints about issues.

Why? If somebody really cares about their privacy, they wouldn't care about using a device that is only a year or two older than the current. And, Motorola phones will soon be supported so there will be more choice.

Tylorw1 With people upgrading from aging devices, it's going to likely cause user counts to decrease or move on to a different OS.

I don't see this happening.

Tylorw1 Motorola is going to be a good option, but it doesn't exist for sale yet. It's going to be a niche product and we don't know if it will exist after 1 phone.

True, we don't know any of this. But I'd say its quite likely to exist after more than one phone.

Tylorw1 If the next Pixels don't have MTE, and the Motorola is cancelled, then Graphene OS would greatly struggle as it tries to panic adapt. I think we all want GOS to exist in the future.

If that unlikely case happened, I'm sure GrapheneOS would come up with a solution.

Tylorw1 GOS will have to change its marketing strategy a bit with different device security tiers and make the explanations clear, but I think it would be effective.

So the Pixel 11 doesn't support MTE. GrapheneOS maybe could support it still, but then users don't have an important security feature - MTE. Some people will say, "oh I don't need that." Or "its just a little feature, who cares?" But I highly doubt GrapheneOS will still want to support it, since that is an important security feature to them. Its like buying a new house that has no lock on your front door. (Pixel 6 & 7, no MTE). You could get broken into. Then one day you get a lock on your door (Pixel 8-10, MTE). It is a small security feature to protect you from getting broken into. Now imagine you want to move to a new house in a newer area. Theres no lock on the door again. And the type of lock needed for this door was so expensive to make, they decided to not include one. (Pixel 11, no MTE) Some people move to the area and don't care, while others hang onto their current houses with locks. Just an example, but you see the point. For better security, people will use a Pixel 8-10 series which supports MTE (Until the Motos come out).

I do not speak for GrapheneOS

Cellobright

GazelleInitial sorry, I missed your point earlier. In that case maybe Moto is not the right choice or people need to wait longer until a Moto budget drops or big sales (like Black Friday/Cyber Monday)

Tylorw1

DeletedUser1111 Back in the Samsung Note 4 days on XDA, I used to create custom TWRP install scripts to edit and apply patches to TouchWiz Android custom OS's, etc. with another ROM developer. I am no longer part of the developer community in that aspect, and now I am only part of flashing custom ROMs like GOS on my phones.

During that time, I found that if you don't adjust your project to keep continued support, it basically causes your project to get left behind and slowly die. That is why in my post I used the word "fear", and I don't want that for GOS.

Tylorw1

Developer-Dude Much is speculation, but generally the biggest barrier to using GOS as a new discoverer is going to be the device. A lot of times when someone decides security is important is random, and if buying an older device from what you already have is the barrier, then most likely they would decide it's not worth the cost.

I'm thinking of this primarily from a business perspective to grow GrapheneOS and expand security access to people when we need it more than ever. GOS without MTE is still going to be way more secure than stock, so there is still value.

DontStop

Tylorw1 GOS will have to change its marketing strategy a bit with different device security tiers and make the explanations clear, but I think it would be effective.

GrapheneOS is about substance, not marketing.
https://grapheneos.org/features
'GrapheneOS is focused on substance rather than branding and marketing.'

Tylorw1

DontStop What I was referring to is more about feature support and displaying their support based on security tiers.

GOS will pick its path forward.

Pocketstar

I was wondering; there are only so many developers and so much time they can spend, and they undoubtedly already spending very much time on the GrapheneOS project, perhaps having too many devices to support will eventually cause burnouts. Perhaps it is best practice to only focus on devices and brands that are more supportive of GrapheneOS, like Motorola, who are providing sources for their devices, without dropping support until the end of life date for current supported devices. (Support of the Pixel 6a will soon end)
This way, it is easier to implement updates without having to go through so much hassle Google is providing recently since they dropped the Pixel sources, which is a real drain on the GrapheneOS developer team.
Not supporting the Pixel 11 might therefore be a good thing as well and the rest will then be more managable.
Whistleblowers, dissidents and other suppressed people can stick to supported devices, which will be in their best interest from a security point of perspective.

xxx

LazLado42 I was looking forward to getting a Motorola but my phone is dying

I mean just get an older Pixel if you need it now. 9 10 10a

Tylorw1

Pocketstar It is definitely a reasonable consideration, and I'm sure they will be having many meetings discussing specifically this.

Not that this is not a great comparison, but I think back to Dodge and the Hemi. Even though it was nearly the same truck, the inline 6 that was cheaper, more fuel efficient, and powerful than their V8s caused a 38% drop in sales. Hemi was still an option, but it was more expensive to get in the average truck configuration. So even though it was still an option, it got more expensive on new trucks and caused a major drop in overall sales and the customer base went elsewhere. Basically what I am getting at is abandoning or increasing the entry price for your main user base for certain feature sets can have heavy consequences that may not be sustainable. Obviously barely comparable, but these trends are common.

Generally new pixels are cheaper and heavily discounted once within its ecosystem, whereas Motorola doesn't have the same type of ecosystem since Google heavily subsidizes them. Even if Motorola gets the better performance, but unlikely better camera, these are still tradeoffs. That is why I said I think in the interim, it would be good to support the Pixel 11 in some form. Maybe a longer major update cycle on the Pixel 11 since its not the security champion but still allows users to enter the GrapheneOS ecosystem.

If only Google stopped making stuff difficult.

Love all the different perspectives I'm reading on here.

Pocketstar

Pocketstar Whistleblowers, dissidents and other suppressed people can stick to supported devices, which will be in their best interest from a security point of perspective.

Important edit: Best to stick to Pixel 8-10 when it comes to security, I don't want to lead people into buying phones without MTE like the Pixel 6 and 7 series. (Including the Pixel tablet, which has no MTE support)

Cellobright

Tylorw1 Really hope Google would change and maybe see the competition and improve security, because when Motorola makes secure phones, Google may lose enterprise and governmental contracts for their phones. We benefit from diversity and no dependence on just one manufacturer, even just two is enough, x86 still sees innovations even when only AMD and Intel can legally print any x86 CPU. Interestingly this Motorola is also what Google once owned and now sold to a Chinese company.

Pocketstar

Tylorw1 If only Google stopped making stuff difficult.

Love all the different perspectives I'm reading on here.

I agree with that completely!

Tylorw1

Cellobright With Motorola being owned by China, I doubt it would get any government contracts (at least in the US). It would have to be sold, just like the Tik Tok debacle and then who would trust it? Maybe a Euro buyout but many euro countries are getting bad about privacy and backdoors.

Google could possibly do its own, but I think it's long term goal plan is ad and subscription revenue, though they do have the enterprise suite for it. Though, is there any trust in Google?

GrapheneOS has a long way to go for Enterprise management, but a possibility. They would need the capital to develop it.

iPhone I feel will retain a strong foothold on this.

I'm glad there is a Motorola phone coming. However, if Google is done with MTE, then dropping support for the Pixel 11 is back to very limited new releases.

fixer

Unfortunately, I think I'll have to return my Pixel 11 Pro. It's a SHAME that Google is shooting itself in the foot.

Cellobright

Tylorw1 in the end if I read it correctly MTE needs a dedicated RAM storage for the tags, so maybe Pixel 11 trimmed down on MTE because of this, and some genius developer decided that if a 12GB model does not have this tag RAM then by all means cut em all. I hope this is just a gap release and the end of RAM crisis, predicted to be late 2027 or 2028 when DDR6 becomes mainstream, Pixel 12 will return to form. I still love Pixels and how Google even replaced failed phones with newer one for basically shipping costs only, even if the trunk stability is BS.

Tylorw1

Cellobright I agree. That is why I traded in my 10 Pro XL. I got it and had such terrible modem issues with service (live rural with not great service anyways) and Bluetooth. Took it in for repair, it had issues, and they replaced it. New one was better but still problems. I gave up. So, it became my secondary phone for work that I barely used and let sit on my desk. Jumped at the chance of $300 for the 11 Pro (700 trade in was accepted) for just a functioning phone that I feel OK reselling if I want.

Not the experience most encountered, but one I did.

FunkTastic

xxx I mean just get an older Pixel if you need it now. 9 10 10a

The keyword is now. It is nearly impossible to buy new a Pixel of the previos generation. I doubt anything will change when Pixels 11 will be current ones.

Tylorw1

FunkTastic A big point you make for the whole debate. The older model phones won't always be available new, and used market prices will probably go up.

« Previous Page Next Page »