WhatsApp - Can they read messages?

ryrona

Watermelon And again, the fact that privacy is for children (something I agree about) doesn't mean that it's okay to push end-to-end–breaking functionality into an existing messaging app that people rely about for private chats that presents itself as end-to-end encrypted.

Nothing about this breaks end-to-end encryption though, nor exposes private chats, unless the party you are chatting with chooses to expose it, and they can do that in countless of other ways too. I don't see the problem, but I am leaving this discussion now. I just wanted to provide an input about new laws and the motivation behind them, and why report buttons are being added, and I have done so now.

Watermelon Once again, the button could report it to the police.

My understanding is that children specifically don't want this, because it is too emotionally taxing if police is involved. They want to click "report and block" and then not be involved anything more.

Slightly relevant, I also talked quite a bit with one police officer a few years ago that works with CSAM reports, and his sentiment was that way way way too many reports that can be dealt with without involving police is being forwarded to police already today, distracting from the cases that actually need their attention. (IIRC, he was particularly upset about Facebook, for which most forwarded CSAM reports are not CSAM or of police interest.) He wanted platforms to take a way bigger responsibility.

Watermelon

ryrona Nothing about this breaks end-to-end encryption though, nor exposes private chats

End-to-end encryption: the middleman who transmits messages between the parties can't see the messages. With the report button, they can.

And who promises a company like Meta wouldn't misuse (intentionally or because of a honest mistake on their side) the data not just for the legitimate purpose of moderating the platform and protecting vulnerable people? Would you trust Meta for that??

And who promises that the person who reports, especially if they're a child, understands what is being reported and to whom? How can you be sure that a child understands that Meta can now read the messages that Meta “can't read” once they press that button?

ryrona unless the party you are chatting with chooses to expose it, and they can do that in countless of other ways too

Sure, but that's none of the platform's interest. WhatsApp also has WhatsApp Web, another feature that undermines end-to-end encryption by the mere fact that WhatsApp is making it available. And so are unencrypted backups. But still, unencrypted backups and WhatsApp Web both get criticized for undermining end-to-end encryption in WhatsApp, despite both of them requiring explicit user action to enable, and both of them aren't available in Signal, which I believe is intentional. If I wouldn't criticize the report button for the same reason, I'd be a hypocrite.

Blastoidea

ryrona

Mind the doorknob on your way out.

lackofhumor

The correct quote was:

mmobder I suppose numerous pdfs supports you with your claim

I cannot edit the previous post, sry.

mmobder You find it concerning that the person "you"'re stalking can complain on you so your account is restricted if that repeats?

I think the problem is not if you we are introduced to a report button or not.
The problem is how the report will work.
If the report would just raise a flag to start a proper investigation, with authorities, is a thing.

If the report is just an excuse to have a copy of user messages, is another.

I can see how this will be very easily exploted in at least two ways:

The message alone is not sufficient to understand why the report has been done, so let's copy the last week.
You do not know when others report you and they don't know when you report them, so now meta can have random copies without no one noticing.

As said here, you can just call the police, or if you need a report button, the report button could call the police for you.

ryrona They are requesting this functionality, so I therefore too believe it is good.

If I have to use the same service, and I don't want this functionality, why their request count more than mine?

ryrona Children generally don't have the emotional capacity to go through with police reporting

Children are capable of reporting out of context messages just beause they do not agree with the other person, or even worse to randomly report people just for fun, or because they do not undertand what they are doing.

ryrona unless the party you are chatting with chooses to expose it

I should not rely on the other party to keep my conversations private.
If I tell you a secret and you tell others I can bring you on court in almost all of the EU countries, why this should be different?

ryrona

Watermelon If I wouldn't criticize the report button for the same reason, I'd be a hypocrite.

I want to be clear I do absolutely not think you are wrong in challenging the idea of adding a report button in end-to-end encrypted chat apps. Personally I cannot see any issues with such a button, nor with voluntarily granting "the middleman" (eg Meta) access to select messages I specifically want them to see. But there will always be other perspectives to any issue, and rarely any absolute truth.

de0u

Watermelon End-to-end encryption: the middleman who transmits messages between the parties can't see the messages. With the report button, they can.

Without a "report" button, I can use a second device to take a screen shot of an offensive message displayed by a 100% E2EE messaging app.

Titan_M2

Watermelon How can you be sure that a child understands that Meta can now read the messages that Meta “can't read” once they press that button?

It says right there in the chat that the last 5 messages will be sent to WhatsApp when you report the conversation.

wuseman

Watermelon And who promises that the person who reports, especially if they're a child, understands what is being reported and to whom? How can you be sure that a child understands that Meta can now read the messages that Meta “can't read” once they press that button?

Which types of discussions with children do you have on WhatsApp that could result in consequences if they report it?

DeletedUser639

ryrona Personally I cannot see any issues with such a button, nor with voluntarily granting "the middleman" (eg Meta) access to select messages I specifically want them to see.

Why?
Meta are not law enforcement, Meta don't have to be constrained by the evidence gathering rules Law enforcement have to abide by.
If there is unlawful messaging etc then Law enforcement are the people to contact, not a dubious, morally corrupt for profit, companies unknown moderators.

Oh and I will never miss-use the button... I promise, cross my heart!...

lackofhumor

de0u

You can also take a screenshot and/or copy paste the message, that still didn't give the server a copy of the message by tapping a button.
You are sending the photo/screenshot/copy of the message manually and I could probably sue you for this in a lot of EU countries, unless the recipient is a police force for legal reasons.

Watermelon

Titan_M2 It says right there in the chat that the last 5 messages will be sent to WhatsApp when you report the conversation.

Not all children would understand the distinction between “WhatsApp” the app and “WhatsApp” the service that's run by people in a remote location. Not all children would understand that WhatsApp is a subsidiary of Meta, and Meta gains access to what WhatsApp (the service) has access to, and Meta has a history of intentionally misusing user data.

wuseman Which types of discussions with children do you have on WhatsApp that could result in consequences if they report it?

Yet another rude comment. This comment that you're quoting wasn't about “my” privacy, but the child's privacy. You know, they'll grow up one day, right? And who says they'll still be okay with how WhatsApp was treating their privacy? The app has no right to assume, in a feature that's supposedly created for them, to make assumptions about this.

lackofhumor I should not rely on the other party to keep my conversations private.

I want to add that while it's impossible and doesn't make sense to completely prevent the “end” in an end-to-end-encrypted messenger from misusing your data, a good privacy-oriented messenger would at least try to minimize it, and add clear explanations/warnings so the “end” would understand the privacy implications of any privacy-compromising action they do, or make it so the damage is minimal. The fact that it doesn't make sense to completely limit the user from violating privacy of other people doesn't mean that the “end-to-end-encrypted” app has no responsibility about what happens at the “end” and can encourage the user to use privacy-violating features that the app gives them.

advokate

Um, WhatsApp? For work? On your private/non-corporate phone?
Is this some kind of a weird joke?
Don't know what laws apply where you reside, but I'd contact law enforcement immediately and toss my job on the spot

By the way, the moment I suggested any colleague at work to use WhatsApp on his/her private mobile phone to discuss work-related stuff, the consequence would be instant dimissal

lackofhumor

Watermelon

I think this kind of mindset (This is what criminals want, so must be bad) is very dangerous.
A tools is just a tool and you should persecute only people.

If they stop selling knives because are used to kill people, how are you going to cut your food?

littlerack

DeletedUser639 Meta are not law enforcement,

But still they're themselves enforced by law to do it. Good by me.

hnn8

Didnt read all these stupid posts.
WA makes it, so you activate backups. By default they are unencrypted in the Google/Apple Clouds. Nobody I know had activated the dubious "end to end encrypted" backups.

xxx

hnn8 By default they are unencrypted in the Google/Apple Clouds.

xxx And i think the backup is not encrypted (or they backup the keys too).

So the data leaks there.

littlerack

hnn8 By default they are unencrypted

Same old story of "we have E2E!!!" (.... and in 6pt "but it's disabled by default and is hidden somehere at the end of relevant screen") as with ruzziagram messenger

Titan_M2

Watermelon Not all children would understand the distinction between “WhatsApp” the app and “WhatsApp” the service that's run by people in a remote location. Not all children would understand that WhatsApp is a subsidiary of Meta, and Meta gains access to what WhatsApp (the service) has access to, and Meta has a history of intentionally misusing user data.

Here's what is says: https://wabetainfo.com/whatsapp-beta-for-android-2-21-18-10-whats-new/, maybe there are better ways to phrase it but 1) children shouldn't have unattended access to a smartphone and especially whatsapp where anyone can talk to you and 2) I find hard to believe that Meta would build a business model based on messages reported by users. It's much more likely that they are doing that through metadata and social graphs, I think they even vaguely imply that in their privacy policy.

Watermelon

Titan_M2 1) children shouldn't have unattended access to a smartphone and especially whatsapp where anyone can talk to you

I'm not opposed to the idea of creating a more monitored chatting app for children, with the aim of giving them better safety at the expense of privacy. Privacy is good, but I can see how this can be good too if properly executed, and not forced on other people with dangerous marketing of “end-to-end encryption”. I think Snapchat might already fulfill this purpose, although Snapchat has dangerous security theater like screenshot detection/blocking.

Titan_M2 2) I find hard to believe that Meta would build a business model based on messages reported by users

Firstly, I distrust Meta. Just one example: A few years ago, Facebook phished their own users, hacked into their email accounts, stole their contacts for advertising, and all of this while saying that the info they phished won't be used for advertising. Meta is a criminal company. (Source: https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-uploaded-1-5-million-users-email-contacts-without-permission-2019-4 (for example))

Secondly, it's mostly a matter of what they can rather than what they do. There's still some trust involved in the do part, for example I trust Signal to stick to their privacy policy and not track users, mainly because they've taken steps to minimize what they can (unlike WhatsApp), they're nonprofit, and they've gained my trust. WhatsApp has a lot of ways it can violate your privacy more than Signal, and Meta has proven itself as a liar and criminal who would do everything too to violate privacy.

« Previous Page