Returning user, my initial experiences retrying GrapheneOS

Norman

Hi everyone. I wanted to make a post detailing my experiences coming back to GrapheneOS after a few years, maybe it will be interesting to some or spark some discussion!

I last used GOS on my Pixel 7 Pro a few years ago. Fast forward to now, I ran the base Pixel OS on my new Pixel 9 for a while. The main reasons I used it was because I was very much attached to Google Wallet, and also because I wanted to test and beta test Android 16 QPR1.

The reason for switching back is because I think privacy for me is more important than running QPR1 or using Google Wallet. I found some ways to get around using Wallet, mainly coming down to just using a magnetically attached pass holder to the back of my phone case which contains some of my cards.

First the positives I've experienced switching back to GOS:

The ability to set app permissions with more granularity is super nice. It feels great to be able to set up, for example, an app with network permissions (which doesn't actually need it) and then removing the permissions afterwards.
The features around WiFi/Bluetooth automatically turning off when unused are great.
Obviously the security aspects. Its great knowing that if I lost my phone it would be a bitch for someone to get into.
The profiles feature remains really cool and useful.

Some negative aspects and pain points transitioning over from stock Pixel OS:

Battery drain is worse in GOS. Where I could comfortably finish a day with 20-30% battery remaining, I now barely make it through a day.
I know this is not a fault of GOS, but notifications not working in most apps if you don't use (Sandboxed) Google Play services really sucks.
Mobile network connectivity seems slightly worse, though I'm not sure if that's a fault of my provider (I have networking set to LTE+5G). Though LTE and 5G connectivity in my country should be more than excellent and have 100% outdoor coverage.
Multi-language support for the spellchecker is buggy and often doesn't seem to work. Even though I have two languages as my System Defaults, the spellchecker will seemingly always use the default language (English) and give me red lines when I type in my second language. This happens for both the default keyboard as well as for FUTO Keyboard (which I've also set up for multi-language).
(minor complaint) Moving data between profiles without using a physical drive or the internet is impossible, which is sometimes really annoying. I know its for security reasons and maybe even impossible to implement. What would be really cool though is if you could designate a 'shared folder' between profiles somehow.
(minor complaint) Using NFC and turning it on/off through quick settings seems a bit buggy.

General things and experience switching:

Moving OS is the same as switching phones, except worse in every way since you don't have your 'old device' handy. For me it was a bitch having to back up apps, try not to forget any, and then reinstall them. In particular switching from Signal to Molly caused some annoying issues, and setting up Whatsapp on my play services profile was a bitch. I've switched mostly away from using apps that depend on play services, but its literally impossible to completely stop using it sadly.
I must admit I miss the user interface and animations from A16 QPR1.

If I think of any other things or encounter anything else I will update this.

Ps: if anyone knows a way or alternative to using Grayjay with Mullvad VPN without having to log in to an account to prevent the 'Login to prove you're not a bot' message, please let me know. I've tried 30 different servers but they all error out and force me to use an alt account for login fallback.

LeslieFH

Norman Moving data between profiles without using a physical drive or the internet is impossible, which is sometimes really annoying. I know its for security reasons and maybe even impossible to implement. What would be really cool though is if you could designate a 'shared folder' between profiles somehow.

Install "Inter Profile Sharing" from Accrescent app store.

GrouchyGrape

Norman Battery drain is worse in GOS

That experience is shared by almost no one. I would strongly suspect configuration errors.

Norman notifications not working in most apps if you don't use (Sandboxed) Google Play services really sucks.

But on stock OS, not only do you not get a choice if they're installed or not, but they're privileged system apps, so GOS is a big win in this regard.

Norman Moving data between profiles without using a physical drive or the internet is impossible

Is stock OS any different?

Norman alternative to using Grayjay with Mullvad VPN

Personally, I would turn off the VPN for GrayJay. I think the benefits of using a VPN for YouTube are minor at best.

Quantum

Norman I would recommend trying Libretube as a Youtube client. You can also check the being detected as a bot issue by connecting to Sweden(se-sto-wg-208 Daita version). I know for a fact that server works on youtube or clients. Or Switz(400 servers not Daita) should work too.

schweizer

Norman notifications not working in most apps if you don't use (Sandboxed) Google Play services really sucks.

This is not really true. All the popular messengers such as Threema Signal Telegram or Whatsapp work without google. But they need the permission to run in background and you must disable battery optimisation manually.

Afaik Whatsapp pays phone manufacturers to exclude them from battery optimisation so you don't need this initial step.

Norman

LeslieFH You're a legend!

GrouchyGrape

That experience is shared by almost no one. I would strongly suspect configuration errors.

Maybe its due to the differences between A16 and QPR1? Or maybe it's due to multiple profiles with multiple VPNs running at the same time. I don't think that's a configuration error though?

But on stock OS, not only do you not get a choice if they're installed or not, but they're privileged system apps, so GOS is a big win in this regard.

I agree. It would be fantastic if more apps implemented UnifiedPush as an alternative.

Personally, I would turn off the VPN for GrayJay. I think the benefits of using a VPN for YouTube are minor at best.

I have two options:

Go through the effort of making a separate google account to use GrayJay with a VPN, since you can log in to the YouTube source with an account to use as fallback.
Disable always-on VPN for Mullvad and use split tunneling for Grayjay.

Privacy wise which one do you think is the best option in this case?

vagr

GrouchyGrape benefits of using a VPN f

May I ask what are the minor benefits (if any?) of using GrapheneOS with a VPN? My threat level is minimum but YT knowing that I'm watching a video in their platform gives me the creeps but again not a dealbreaker and I might just do that down the road. But whenever I find myself doing something menial I try to listen to something in YT and getting to connect to the VPN (proton) can be a pain sometimes, even after switching the server and that spoils the entire experience. I use Newpipe btw.

GrouchyGrape

Norman multiple profiles with multiple VPNs running at the same time

Did you have this same setup on stock? If not, you can't fairly compare the two as this will obviously use more battery.

Norman Privacy wise which one do you think is the best option in this case?

Depends on what your personal goals are and how you like to run your phone. Even with making a dedicated Google account for GrayJay, I found that I still had issues with using a VPN on YouTube. I now exclusively use NewPipe without a VPN. But I also don't have any serious threat actors targeting me. If I was worried about that, nearly all my apps would be uninstalled and my YouTube watching would cease immediately.

Decide for yourself what makes the most sense for you.

LeslieFH

Norman Or maybe it's due to multiple profiles with multiple VPNs running at the same time. I don't think that's a configuration error though?

It's a specific use case which does increase the battery drain (I use a single owner profile for everything and my battery life is actually pretty great).

Were you using multiple profiles with multiple VPNs on stock OS too?

GrapheneOS

Norman

Maybe its due to the differences between A16 and QPR1? Or maybe it's due to multiple profiles with multiple VPNs running at the same time. I don't think that's a configuration error though?

It's due to you configuring your device in an inefficient way. You're likely using multiple apps remaining active and waking the device over and over such as Signal/Molly WebSocket push instead of FCM or UnifiedPush.

Norman

LeslieFH

Were you using multiple profiles with multiple VPNs on stock OS too?

No I was not using multiple profiles. I started using them on GOS to make a separate profile for applications that require Google Play Services and Google apps. I am aware it's not a fully fair comparison but I think in the concept of GOS it makes sense to do it this way since it's encouraged to use the profiles function.

DeletedUser495

vagr get a PIpePipe (better version of NewPipe) and swich over to Mullvad.

GrouchyGrape

vagr depends on a few factors, but a VPN isn't some magic bullet that gives you anonymity on the internet. Specifically talking about Newpipe, there can be some benefit to using a VPN if attempting to avoid Google tracking, but I'd imagine it's not much. Generally speaking, you use a VPN (e.g. Proton VPN, Mullvad, etc) to prevent your ISP from knowing what sites your visiting, not the site itself. Attempting to prevent a site from building a profile on you (if they're motivated enough), is exceptionally difficult.

I find it much easier and less stressful to always assume Google knows it's me watching the videos, then act accordingly.

You can try Mullvad, but I find that the hassle typically just isn't worth it and nearly all VPN servers will be blocked eventually. If your goal is to obfuscate your IP from Google, then use cellular. CGNAT gives you a massive pool of users all sharing the same IP.

becomeparmesan

The battery drain was discussed here in another thread. You should basically consider turning off 5G and allow only up to 4G (yeah, that sucks).

I also remember reading somewhere in this forum that the stock OS actually does switch off 5G depending on the usage, but is still showing 5G. This could explain the higher battery drain with GOS.
Edit: found it, https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/21909-extreme-battery-drain-from-mobile-network/76

DeletedUser495

becomeparmesan why it makes sense to switch to 4G only, is because then the radio doesn't cycle between 5G and 4G if the coverage is not ideal. Helps battery too.

vagr

GrouchyGrape Thx for the detailed response. It makes sense now and it will help me reassess how I watch it. Proton is up for renewal this year and I might look at Mullvad VPN and I will see how it goes.

Norman

Quantum I've tried using Libretube before but it was really buggy for me and refused to load videos. The reason for using Grayjay is it being updated more frequently if Youtube brings out a new patch the Youtube plugin on Grayjay is usually updated within a couple of hours.
I tried Switz 400 as I don't want to use DAITA, and it works! I hope it stays that way for a while.

I think ultimately I might just use split tunneling for Youtube in the future.

Quantum

Norman Have you tried it after the local mode was introduced?(like newpipe)

I do get you though. It's annoying as hell when I wanna watch a video and Youtube had changed something that breaks the client I'm using.

There are plenty of servers that should work 99% of the time.

Norman

Quantum yes I have, it didn't work properly at the time. I'm willing to try it out again in the future though if I get fed up with Grayjay.

Norman

schweizer i wasn't talking about messaging apps. My mail, delivery (post), shopping and public transport apps all don't have functional notifications without google play.

GrapheneOS

schweizer These apps use FCM when available, other than the FOSS variant of Molly which is what's available in Accrescent. Their non-FCM push is not nearly as efficient as it could be and it's also inefficient to have many push implementations running at the same time. Signal's WebSocket push is very inefficient and will drain a lot of battery. It's extremely common for people to install either Molly from Accrescent (cannot use FCM, even if sandboxed Google Play is present) or Signal without sandboxed Google Play, then blame GrapheneOS for the poor battery life. If people are using multiple setups like this, that's even worse. Signal's implementation is much less efficient than what many other apps provide for non-FCM push. It's the number one issue we see where people are blaming GrapheneOS for poor battery life because of how they set up their device. Get rid of Signal WebSocket push and battery life will be far better. Either use UnifiedPush via a MollySocket server or FCM via sandboxed Google Play, not Signal's WebSocket push, unless you can accept poor battery life.

GrapheneOS

Norman

Battery drain is worse in GOS. Where I could comfortably finish a day with 20-30% battery remaining, I now barely make it through a day.

No, this is because of how you chose to set up your device. You set it up in a way that's highly inefficient such as using Signal WebSocket push. You should check which active apps you have. If you have more active apps than sandboxed Google Play, that's why it's less efficient than the stock OS. Also consider using 4G (meaning 4G or below) or 4G-only mode if your 5G connections is inefficient.

I know this is not a fault of GOS, but notifications not working in most apps if you don't use (Sandboxed) Google Play services really sucks.

Many apps support other ways of doing it. It sounds like you aren't using sandboxed Google Play and are using inefficient push implementations instead which explains your poor battery life. You should use Molly's UnifiedPush with a MollySocket server rather than Signal WebSocket push. This will fix your battery life if it's what you've been doing.

Mobile network connectivity seems slightly worse, though I'm not sure if that's a fault of my provider (I have networking set to LTE+5G). Though LTE and 5G connectivity in my country should be more than excellent and have 100% outdoor coverage.

No, it's the same.

Multi-language support for the spellchecker is buggy and often doesn't seem to work. Even though I have two languages as my System Defaults, the spellchecker will seemingly always use the default language (English) and give me red lines when I type in my second language. This happens for both the default keyboard as well as for FUTO Keyboard (which I've also set up for multi-language).

It works the same as the stock OS at an OS level. You can use a different keyboard and spell checker.

Moving data between profiles without using a physical drive or the internet is impossible, which is sometimes really annoying. I know its for security reasons and maybe even impossible to implement. What would be really cool though is if you could designate a 'shared folder' between profiles somehow.

This is the same as the stock OS. It's easier to move data between a work profile or Private Space and the user they're within since they're integrated together more than user profiles meant to mimic separate devices.

Using NFC and turning it on/off through quick settings seems a bit buggy.

It should work fine.