Lumo by Proton (AI Chatbot)

DeletedUser370

ThisOldGuy Well, this is one use case which I hope medical professionals will be able to use as a "second opinion" with great success in the future. Which is why I'm not totally against AI, even though the web I'm seeing today is increasingly not to my satisfaction. Where I live, they are already starting to test AI like this in medical settings; but they are training models specifically for this, and certainly not using GPT or an LLM. But, now I might be deviating slightly from the topic.

ThisOldGuy

Lumos "drive integration" immediately jumped out at me as a red flag.
Would anyone be able to help me understand if it is more risky for the unencrypted data to be in vanadium memory or local then stored on their servers?
Does the answer change if a device is unknowingly compromised? Would vanadium need additional site settings to ensure additional protections?

Quote from Proton Support team on usage:
The Drive file is decrypted in the browser memory. If you never send it, it goes away (it is not saved). Now, if you send a message to Lumo with a Drive file attached to it, a copy of the file is saved inside your zero-access history, just like the text content of the messages. Should you want to erase the file, you can delete the entire conversation. Granular delete of messages and attachments is not supported at the moment.

Finally, if your conversation is in Ghost mode, the attached file won't be saved to your history, just like the rest of the conversation.

nandohyphen1

DeletedUser370 I agree. its definitely surprising and a bit shocking that Proton, a company based on privacy is so focused, I guess you could say, on going with ai 'because it is the future'. I personally don't want anything to do with ai, especially using Proton. I gave Lumo a try and its likely I'll never use it again.

IksNorTen

nandohyphen1 As far as I remember, It's the Proton community that asked for that.

I remember Proton created a poll a few months ago (maybe 1 year before) asking their community on WHAT they should work and there were plenty of other propositions like improving their actual apps/features.

It turned out the AI integration was one of the first (maybe the first if I'm correct) proposition that was voted by the community, which is quite surprising because a lot of people on their Reddit (the Proton's part of the community that is the most concerned by privacy) were mad at the results!

Who are those who asked for AI? People who don't know a lot about privacy? Or just too hyped by the AI trend and forgot how the use of an AI is fundamentally not a good thing?

Anyway It's too late to debate about that, people (a majority) asked for AI, they got AI.

Exhort14

nandohyphen1 This isn't surprising, not at all. Proton has been clear that their business model is to provide a private suite of products funded by paying customers rather than selling data to paying advertisers. Expect more duplication of Google and other big tech products.

nandohyphen1

IksNorTen I'd would have rather seen them improve existing products than make an ai chatbot. I guess the only good part about it so far is that they aren't forcing it into their other products - at least not yet. I've always used proton for it's security and privacy, but if they are going to start implementing ai into everything, I don't see how they are private and secure anymore. :(

Blank

nandohyphen1 I don't know why everyone is concerned about the privacy of the product. Proton history and policy has always been to provide services that respect privacy rights. If you're a long time user of their products why are you concerned ? Their blog about Lumo are pretty clear about the privacy guidelines of the product. The chat are end-to-end encrypted with no logs policy. So could you or someone explain me their concerns ?

Obviously, AI is present everywhere, maybe for the worst...but at least Proton propose an alternative to none private companies. I mean I prefer using Lumo on my phone rather than Gemini, as example. In my opinion, we should be realistic since AI is going to be more and more adopted (like computers)... Therefore, why shouldn't we embrace a company which has a privacy guidelines rather than being forced of using some other products that aren't respectful for the human kind ?

unrelated789

I've installed it on my p7a running GOS but if i try the voice input button it says "Speech recognition not available." I have Whisper+ installed which works for speech-to-text in applications such as Signal but it doesn't seem to integrate with Lumo. Has anyone gotten this to work? Or alternatively, a text-to-speech solution for same.

419047

unrelated789

I'm having the same problem.

419047

unrelated789

Anyone know a fix for this? I'm having the same problem.

nandohyphen1

__Blank__ I understand that. :) I think it just has to do with personal preferences. Some people want ai and they got it. Others don't want it in Proton, and currently Proton isn't forcing lumo into their other apps, which is good for those people. I still think Proton is privacy focused, just that Lumo ai isn't for me. :)

de0u

__Blank__ I don't know why everyone is concerned about the privacy of the product. [...] Their blog about Lumo are pretty clear about the privacy guidelines of the product.

Naively it seems as if offering free LLM usage to everybody could require a lot of GPUs, which are currently not super-cheap to buy (or run). I don't see that described in the blog post. Also, I do see it saying that they plan to move Lumo out of Switzerland due to privacy concerns, and to be proudly European, but I don't see which European country is believed to have better privacy.

Blank

nandohyphen1 Thanks for your response. I understand that... I am afraid in a near future AI will be as widely spread as computers... Look Yesterday I went to buy earburds, most of them include AI to reduce active noise...

Psyonico

__Blank__ Yesterday I went to buy earburds, most of them include AI to reduce active noise

I wonder if they're actually using AI or if its just standard active noise cancellation, but the marketing teams see AI and think "win"

Standard ANC just takes all input noise and reverses the phase and then plays that reversed phase into your headphone. Its a technology that's been around for at least 25 years and can be done with a simple piece of dumb hardware, no computer needed.

I know some headphones, like AirPods Pro, will use actual AI to try and suss out what you likely want to hear from the rest of the background, but I don't know how wide spread that tech has gotten.

Blank

de0u I understand your worries. But I still would prefer using proton AI which is a company known for their privacy guidelines than Google or open AI. Yes it isn't cheap indeed. I think that's for this reason they have separated Lumo for their main products (so they can setup another subscription plan, to finance the product). For proton moving from Switzerland, I can understand that, given Switzerland is switching their privacy policies for a more surveillance approach, meanwhile European has many privacy focused laws such as GDPR to protect users data and rights. It isn't certainly the best... But at least better than Switzerland switching their privacy policies.

But just as @nandohyphen1 said...just a matter of preference.

nandohyphen1

__Blank__ I agree with you too. I would rather use an ai service made by proton than google or other big tech 100%! That would only be if I had to use it though. :)

de0u

__Blank__ For proton moving from Switzerland, I can understand that, given Switzerland is switching their privacy policies for a more surveillance approach, meanwhile European has many privacy focused laws such as GDPR to protect users data and rights.

I am not an expert on GDPR, but Wikipedia says law enforcement is "exempt".

If GDPR is seen as robust protection, why not store your data in Google Drive in France?

leafnose

de0u
The Swiss federal decree, should it come into force, would probably make Switzerland the worst European country, and certainly the worst Western European country regarding systematic surveillance – not taking into account intelligence alliances.
However, the most likely is that the decree will be greatly toned down before coming into force, or even never come into force.
By looking elsewhere, Proton is both anticipating the worst-case scenario and sending a political message to Swiss authorities.
GDPR has its utility – even in Switzerland –, but it is indeed just a law. Google is used to pay fines to the EU for having massively infringed it, and the USA is to be seen as a country representing a risk of not respecting EU or EU-member laws, that’s the position of France CNIL.

Blank

de0u because Google Drive's server is owned by an American company with all their servers located in the US, where the US law is applied.

What do you mean by exempt ?

What the GDPR means is that people possess certain rights such as :

Transparency : of what data is being collected and for whst
consent : users must give their explicit permission and can remove it whenever they want without justification.
Data minimisation : only data which serve strict purposes must be collected.

Also companies must ensure that days remain confidential, integrity.

If a users ask for the suppression of data, the company must delete all data except for treatment, but must remove them after treatment being completed

de0u

__Blank__ What do you mean by exempt ?

As I wrote, I am not a GDPR expert, and I wrote that I was quoting Wikipedia, and I provided a link, so I really don't understand the question.

Here is the text from Wikipedia (which was written by somebody other than me):

These are some cases which are not addressed in the GDPR specifically, thus are treated as exemptions.

Personal or household activities

Law enforcement

National security

barding

__Blank__ A lot of the provisions in the GDPR can be superseeded by national law. Or, rather, GDPR doesn't forbid "lawful use" of data, which is something constructed in national law, so there's quite a bit of room for lawmakers to move.

leafnose

__Blank__ because Google Drive's server is owned by an American company with all their servers located in the US, where the US law is applied.

This is not true.
See Choose a geographic location for your data.
And Locations of Google Data Centers.
Google Workspace includes Google Drive.

I’ll add that US extraterritoriality makes little difference whether the servers are located in the US or in another country.

Blank

barding I am not sure about that. For What I found the GDPR is applied to all members without exception. So a country can have complementary laws to the GDPR but cannot override them since adopted by all members.

Blank

leafnose thanks. But I still think Google can manage your data as they want because they're based in the US. Maybe I am wrong. But I think there's a jurisdiction void around US company owning European data.

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