Is GrapheneOS the most secure OS in the world?

JollyRancher

gk7ncklxlts99w1 I wonder how GrapheneOS and pixel compare to other phones and operating systems, including obscure ones and ones probably only used by rich people and spies, etc.

GoS on a Pixel 9 is the most secure computer that the general public can get.

It beats most bespoke devices as well.

As for spies? Well both Apple and Google have strong relationships with the US NatSec establishment. One could surmise that the have bespoke iOS/Android versions that are signed with the official keys and on the surface would present as vanilla devices but in reality have all kinds of security, privacy, and intelligence gathering features that would never see the light of day.

TrustExecutor

JollyRancher
Thrilling to think about it! I hope there is some information leak one day.

Murcielago

JollyRancher

As for spies? Well both Apple and Google have strong relationships with the US NatSec establishment. One could surmise that the have bespoke iOS/Android versions that are signed with the official keys and on the surface would present as vanilla devices but in reality have all kinds of security, privacy, and intelligence gathering features that would never see the light of day.

Theoretically, many things are possible and conceivable - do you have any reliable sources or evidence to support this theory?

gk7ncklxlts99w1

JollyRancher

Is Pixel 9 known to have any security improvements over previous generations?

JollyRancher

Murcielago
One could surmise that anyone who had reliable sources or evidence of that would be bound by various laws & regulations dealing with classified information and thus highly advised not to provide that information to anyone not cleared for it.

In the event that I theoretically had such evidence, I certainly wouldn't provide it.

Note the "surmise" in my post, it exists for a reason.

Murcielago

JollyRancher

One could surmise that anyone who had reliable sources or evidence of that would be bound by various laws & regulations dealing with classified information and thus highly advised not to provide that information to anyone not cleared for it.

It is certainly not easy to leak such information but thanks to brave people risking a lot it happens.

The last prominent example I can think of off the top of my head:

U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users' encrypted accounts

Someone leaked the info and now it's being widely and publicly discussed.

In the event that I theoretically had such evidence, I certainly wouldn't provide it.

In that case, i think it would probably be safer for you not to post this (not even disguised as a vague assumption) in the forum (those actors who can do what you are suggesting would probably also be able to tell exactly where you are right now and be knocking on your door in the next few minutes).

More helpful for everyone (and probably also safer for you- protection through public exposure) would be to (secretly) make it public with evidence of this so that it can be widely discussed and we as a society can fight back.

Note the "surmise" in my post, it exists for a reason
.

I noticed and really appreciated it.

Look I can't prove you wrong (which holds true to many assumptions about what might happen im the world). I just think that pure conjecture without any proof doesn't offer much value and could even lead to wrong decisions:

In this specific case (just an example) your assumption could lead people to the - based on the current facts- false conclusion that swapping a up to date iPhone or a Google Pixel (due to arguing

both Apple and Google have strong relationships with the US NatSec establishment

for a Purism Librem 5 would be a good idea to protect against the threat you "surmised".

KCne

Murcielago for a Purism Librem 5 would be a good idea to protect against the threat you "surmised".

https://xcancel.com/GrapheneOS/status/1991139163203150065#m

Purism is using very low security components which are essentially end-of-life and never received proper security support. Purism also doesn't ship firmware updates for ideological reasons. They leave severe vulnerabilities unpatched. They blocked themselves doing it for some

user0 ipados is secure, but there always is BUT
It is not private

https://xcancel.com/GrapheneOS/status/1924510552287535506#m

Privacy involves much more including privacy from services, sandboxed applications, etc. macOS would win in many areas other than privacy from OS vendor [compared to Linux distros like Fedora]

A small amount of uninvasive telemetry isn't the catastrophe people make it out to be and LOTS of open source software including Firefox has similar telemetry to macOS. You aren't avoiding all telemetry, etc. by using open source software, and it's a tiny aspect of privacy

With this logic, iPadOS is even more secure and private than MacOS

DeletedUser237 nord and pia share the same owner whos a shady dud,

Nord has also failed to notify people of data breaches in a timely manner, and has downplayed those breaches

Hales Does grapheneos (which I like) have any third party testing

GrapheneOS also has been audited

grayway2

IOS is secure but was also compromised several times before apple introduced "lockdown mode"

Lockdown mode was probably already bypassed but we just don't have any public proof.

As for me, the most impressive hacking of iOS was against the Kasperksy team : https://arstechnica.com/security/2023/12/exploit-used-in-mass-iphone-infection-campaign-targeted-secret-hardware-feature/

A company who talks about military grade encryption technology cannot be serious about security. So for me Solarin is just a scam like NordVPN. Also the company is from Israel (Cellebrite, Pegasus ect.)

Even for free I don't want it

GrapheneOS

grayway2

IOS is secure but was also compromised several times before apple introduced "lockdown mode"

The claim that it isn't regularly exploited in ways that work with lockdown is false.

Lockdown mode was probably already bypassed but we just don't have any public proof.

This is a completely inaccurate claim and we've provided such examples ourselves as have others. There are many examples of devices with lockdown being exploited. It greatly reduces the attack surface of Safari and and especially Apple messaging services but doesn't do a whole lot beyond that. It doesn't enable a bunch of advanced hardening features.

gk7ncklxlts99w1

grayway2

How is NordVPN a scam? Just because it mentions military grade encryption, does not make it a scam. All that says is their marketing is vague and deliberately sensational to get you to buy their product. That doesn't equate to scamming.

grayway2

GrapheneOS As you said, it greatly reduces attack surface of Safari and Apple messaging services.

Lockdown mode successfully blocked attempts from NSO group : https://citizenlab.ca/2023/04/nso-groups-pegasus-spyware-returns-in-2022/

From that article : https://citizenlab.ca/2023/09/blastpass-nso-group-iphone-zero-click-zero-day-exploit-captured-in-the-wild/

If lockdown mode was "on" it would stop the attack because in that case it was using an exploit through iMessage.

By the end of 2023, Apple said that they were not aware of any successful attack against individuals using lockdown mode : https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/07/apple-says-it-is-not-aware-anyone-using-lockdown-mode-got-hacked/

So since then, I did not find real public proof of devices running last iOS update + lockdown mode on being exploited remotely.

I'm not saying it's a bulletproof but I do not see the "many examples of devices running lockdown being exploited"

I do not count AFU exploit with physical access of the device because I'm specifically talking about exploitation through remote.

ignoramous

grayway2 By the end of 2023, Apple said that they were not aware of any successful attack against individuals using lockdown mode : https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/07/apple-says-it-is-not-aware-anyone-using-lockdown-mode-got-hacked/

So since then, I did not find real public proof of devices running last iOS update + lockdown mode on being exploited remotely

Apple would say that because why won't they. They're a marketing-oriented company, first and foremost.

CitizenLab (Canada) is more humble in its assessment (in the same blog post you shared):

Given that we have seen no indications that NSO has stopped deploying PWNYOURHOME, this suggests that NSO may have figured out a way to correct the notification issue, such as by fingerprinting Lockdown Mode.

GrapheneOS It doesn't enable a bunch of advanced hardening features.

Yep. Inexplicably, iOS' Hardened Runtime remains opt-in, instead of turning it ON in Lockdown Mode for all apps.

DeletedUser227

grayway2 what percentage of iOS users know/understand what lockdown mode is, let alone use it? I don't have the statistics, but I have good guess, very small. So a lot of devices WILL get exploited in AFU.

GrapheneOS

grayway2

By the end of 2023, Apple said that they were not aware of any successful attack against individuals using lockdown mode

Apple is not aware of their devices being exploited in general, and hardly anyone uses lockdown mode, so why would they be aware of that happening? It's a marketing claim with very little substance behind it. Safari is regularly remotely exploited with lockdown enabled, as are the OS and other apps. Lots of real world, publicly available evidence proves you completely wrong. Apple is using misleading marketing by claiming they aren't aware of something which they would realistically have no way of being aware of in the first place especially considering they aren't really trying to find it themselves. It's as worthless as it would be for us to say we have no evidence of there ever being a successful remote exploit in the wild against GrapheneOS with any configuration. That is true but we don't say nonsense like that because we know it's highly misleading and marketing GrapheneOS that way would be dishonest.

K8y

grayway2 Lockdown mode successfully blocked attempts from NSO group : https://citizenlab.ca/2023/04/nso-groups-pegasus-spyware-returns-in-2022/

How do you turn on lockdown mode in Gos and still use the phone?

grayway2

DeletedUser227 Lockdown mode does not prevent AFU exploit of Iphones with physical access.

Lockdown mode is to prevent access over-the-air from malicious actors. Lockdown mode does not protect you, if your iPhone is already compromised.

DeletedUser479

user0

GrapheneOS how does ipados compare?

Hesao

DeletedUser479 iPadOS is basically iOS, but without standalone support for SMS and phone calls and some different features like stage manager, that I doubt would be exploited.

user0

DeletedUser479 ipados is secure, but there always is BUT
It is not private. And can be exploited with all sorts of pegasuses
GOS is as private as possible and secure.
BUT
It does not have (no os does) protection from zero days or idiot user.

DeletedUser227

grayway2 What's up with the tunnel vision? Look at the title of this thread and don't turn it into yet another iOS discussion.

other8026

user0 It does not have (no os does) protection from zero days

I'd suggest reading https://grapheneos.org/features#exploit-protection

DeletedUser479

user0 so is it more "secury" if u use a wifi only ipad? Like with the pixel tablet?

DeletedUser237

gk7ncklxlts99w1 the most "secure" OS is the one that's turned off and hurried 100m in the ground. Problem is it's unusable.

Even air gapped systems can be infected with malware. It's not he system that's the problem, it's the human factor.

gk7ncklxlts99w1

andrej567 the point you're making is moot

The devs of GrapheneOS are aware that reducing permissions leads to a more secure OS. Something that has less lines of code allows for less chance for vulnerabilities, and its easier to maintain, less chance for things to break. Of course the most secure OS is one that is effectively a brick - but that would not be an operational system. Dumbphones could be cited here as an example if it weren't for the fact that you probably use it to do SMS and calls, which are incredibly insecure compared to say, Signal. If you use a dumbphone and never insert a SIM card, and never enable bluetooth, you could say it's pretty secure but also pointless for anything other than playing snake.

de0u

gk7ncklxlts99w1 Is Pixel 9 known to have any security improvements over previous generations?

https://grapheneos.org/faq#recommended-devices

There's a lot of good material on the GrapheneOS web site.

DeletedUser237

gk7ncklxlts99w1 nord and pia share the same owner whos a shady dud, these two are the lowest of the list of vpns I'd trust slightly above "free" vpns. If you want to know more do your research I won't be spamming this thread.

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