Signal now available in fDroid by Guardian Project Repo. Can it be trusted?

RubenTortillaDip

I downloaded the Signal APK from the Signal website a long time ago.
Now, when I open fdroid, it tells me that an update for signal is available.
The signal app is available by the repo of the guardian project.

Why can I update my signal app via fdroid, if I did not installed it by fdroid in the first place?

Why is the app published on the guardian project repo?

It seems suspicious to me.

Should I update the app conveniently via fdroid?

Should I use signal at all at this point?

Because i just heared, that the american government officially recommend signal, which seems to be suspicious to me.

Artn

RubenTortillaDip I downloaded the Signal APK from the Signal website a long time ago.

Which means you downloaded the APK version from https://signal.org/android/apk and not Google play store.

RubenTortillaDip The signal app is available by the repo of the guardian project.

Which if you are successfully installing, means it is the same package with the same signature.

RubenTortillaDip Why can I update my signal app via fdroid, if I did not installed it by fdroid in the first place?

It is because the APK signature and package name is the same as the APK you downloaded from the signal.org website, and Guardian project is only offering the package (and possibly verifying hopefully they are distributing the correct package with all signatures verified).

RubenTortillaDip It seems suspicious to me.

Everything is suspicious unless otherwise proved (verified) if you are paranoid, did you verify the APK from signal.org? Did you verify you are visiting the correct website while downloading the APK?

RubenTortillaDip Should I update the app conveniently via fdroid?

If your package is already installed and valid and verified, it should be difficult for Guardian to provide a malicious update.

RubenTortillaDip Should I use signal at all at this point?

Because i just heared, that the american government officially recommend signal, which seems to be suspicious to me.

This is an entirely different discussion touched by the whole community several times.

Xtreix

RubenTortillaDip The general recommendation for Signal on GrapheneOS is to download Molly from Accrescent, it's a hardened fork and Accrescent is the best way to download it safely, F-Droid is completely broken with anti-security practices.

https://privsec.dev/posts/android/f-droid-security-issues/

https://web.archive.org/web/20240519170009/https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/issues/3110#note_1613430404

https://web.archive.org/web/20241228060235/https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/issues/127

angela Please don't FUD. Google Pixel is the main device used for Android developers and the most studied AOSP-based device studies by security researchers, its hardware also contains more open-source elements than the alternatives, even if firmware, drivers etc are not, but Trusty TEE is open-source and Titan M 2 contains open-source code. A backdoor wouldn't even be efficient and cost-effective here.

raccoondad

RubenTortillaDip

"It seems suspicious to me."
Why? The Guardian project is fairly trusted. Enough for Tor to use them.

"Should I update the app conveniently via fdroid?"
If you want, you are already using F-Droid, the app is already installed, the signing key can't be changed

"Should I use signal at all at this point?"
Why wouldn't you?

"Because i just heared, that the american government officially recommend signal, which seems to be suspicious to me."
I assure you, the US government has more secrets to keep secret than you do....

They also recommend AES, is the AES standard now bad? Is ED25519? Is the entirety of NIST backdoored?

The US government most likely doesn't want government employees writing compromising messages through SMS, which is why Signal was mentioned. What department recommends them btw?

GrapheneOS

RubenTortillaDip Guardian Project is not a good source of apps. You should use Molly from the Accrescent app store.

raccoondad Tor is building their own VPN app because the Guardian Project's Orbot has massive stability, security and other issues which are not being addressed. There were failed attempts at collaboration between them.

RubenTortillaDip raccoondad Orbot is not from the Tor project. Telling people to use that in the meantime is because their own app isn't ready. It is not wrong to say it's not from them.

angela

it's suspicious because signal requires a number to sign up

linking your signal conversation to any kyc purchases that fingerprint the hardware de the phone

linking signal to a number that is likely linked to people and transactions

if there's a backdoor in google play services, and if the government ordered that and issues a gag order then there likely is one, it's entirely possible all of the signal messages can be read by the upper technosavats of the government at any time

and if there's a backdoor in the chipsets of the cellular modem or firmware, then someone is more likely linking Signal to somethinh that can be tracked, unless they purchased a burner number in cash to register

just as more people were learning about xmpp and session and other non-kyc alternatives, here comes signal with captchas and kyc-phone number requests...

but don't worry, it's totally secure ;-)

the graphene developers do not seem to think there could be a backdoor in pixel chipsets, from what ive seen. i dont speak for them and their position just may be theres no evidence of one. im not convinced one isn't there. if there is a backdoor, it is still only accessible by very few

fid02

angela linking your signal conversation to any kyc purchases that fingerprint the hardware de the phone

It's not clear what you're trying to say, but it sounds as if you're implying that providing my phone number to Signal will make other entities able to snoop on my activity within the Signal app. I have not seen any evidence to support such a claim. Do you have some?

angela if there's a backdoor in google play services, and if the government ordered that and issues a gag order then there likely is one, it's entirely possible all of the signal messages can be read by the upper technosavats of the government at any time

Are you saying that Google Play services would be able to harvest my Signal conversations if the Play services app or infrastructure were to be compromised? How would that work on a technical level, exactly? I would be interested in as much detail as possible, preferably linking to technical documentation where I would be able to dive more into the topic, or related topics. I'm open to research papers as well.

Your speculations of a backdoor are interesting, although I tend to agree more with this perspective on the topic: https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/10150-not-your-average-why-pixel-thread/7

angela

Xtreix

The fact that security researchers could have uncovered a backdoor if one existed is a decent argunent.

Is F-Droid really that risky? So risky that it's better to ise Obtanium or something else?

RubenTortillaDip

raccoondad

raccoondad The Guardian project is fairly trusted. Enough for Tor to use them."

I've red (also in this forum) that the Guardian Project is not official from the Tor developers. So how is the guardian project related to tor and it's developer's?

RubenTortillaDip

raccoondad which is why Signal was mentioned. What department recommends them btw?

I saw this information on a YouTube. The name of the video is "US Government Officially Recommends Signal-What This Means For You" and is published by a youtuber with the name "the most beloved one" (on opposite day) (I think is it not wanted to mention youtubers here)
Anyway the link to the .gov website the video is referring to is linked under the video and it is a "cisa gov" website

raccoondad

RubenTortillaDip From Tors website:

" In the meantime you can use F-Droid to download Tor Browser for Android by enabling the Guardian Project's Repository." -https://support.torproject.org/tormobile/tormobile-7/

"I've read (also in this forum) that the Guardian Project is not official from the Tor developers"

Whoever is saying that seems to be wrong

akc3n

RubenTortillaDip The name of the video is "US Government Officially Recommends Signal-What This Means For You" and is published by a youtuber with the name "the most beloved one" (on opposite day).

The video you are referring to is https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ52_wr2wWU
It was created by TheHatedOne.

(I think is it not wanted to mention youtubers here)

Some YouTubers who sell marketing theatrics and campaign against facts / cover up truth, are not welcome to be promoted / mentioned on our forum.

JollyRancher

Does your threat model include the NSA actively targeting you as a priority tasking?

If the answer is yes then you are fucked. Signal might or might not be something that they can comprise but merely by asking the question here you have already shown you don't understand what hiding from them entails.

Is your threat model anything less than the full power of the US national security and Intel establishment being after you? Then Signal is perfectly fine.

I would use Molly Foss (via Accrescent) so as to avoid the notification exposure issue.

If you are really serious, use a burner number and phone to create the signal account and ditch the number immediately afterwards. Oh, and access the app via Mullvad vpn.

For essentially all threat models save the absolute most extreme, Signal running on GOS will keep your communications that go through Signal security against technical means of compromise.

Blastoidea

NSA is not after me.

I use Signal with Family and a couple of friends, without hesitation. We used Session for a while, but there seemed to be problems with notifications.

I’ve started to play with SimpleX, and I think #2 granddaughter will help out. I don’t find it as straightforward as Signal, but maybe that’s me. I like the idea very much.

JollyRancher

Blastoidea

Signal is an incredible easy to use drop in replacement for SMS. Basically, it just works even for the tech illiterate of the world.

SimpleX is somewhat more complicated. It is structurally more secure, absolutely more anonymous, and what I would recommend for communication with untrusted, unknown, or anonymous parties. It isn't just a drop in replacement though.

argante

akc3n

It was created by TheHatedOne.

As well as this: Signal's Terrible MobileCoin Betrayal.

Signal:

the server is not open-source because they use a proprietary spam scanner(?). But wait: for encrypted messages?
push notifications risk
account recovery/copy risk if someone has the ability to copy my sim, eg: registration lock by default?
signal's infrastructure is on amazon cloud
full knowledge of who contacted whom and when

angela

Let's say you speak with "Friend" in Signal:

You have set Signal to delete messages after 1 day:

You: "Abortion? Yes please, pregnancy is not for me and I was too lazy to get birth control. I don't care if it's legal."

Friend: "Cool! I love abortions! I hope to have one some time in the future."

uh-oh, friend just got busted for doing something illegal. Now they make a deal to snitch on You.

Your friend shows there non-Graphene phone, seized at arrest with Signal. The messages are gone but they see you both communicate with a 1 day delete timer. Your friend is now credible. You also use the same Signal number to communicate with others and the police talk with some friends and learn this is your Signal number, which you registered with a burner. Since it's.clearly linked to 1 phone, they know it's you and Friend that talked.

The police call you: "Friend said you like abortions and had three. Is this true?"

You hang up but it's too late. Your friend gets 2 years in prison and you get charged. Under President Vance's new rules, getting an abortion means punishment by death on the wall. You only got 1, but decide to stay silent.

The government seizes you and does an inspection. You refuse to unlock and use your duress password and they say that's consciousness of guilt. There are abortion scars and they use that against you. You are killed after they convict you of First Week Fetal Murder.

Option 2: Simple X Chat

Your friend is arrested. The police call you and you say "I have no idea who that crack whore is. She isn't even my friend. Do you have proof? Now if you don't mind, I have to go to church to pray, like I always do." There's no number, the messages are gone, and you talk with others on SimpleX chat but they are not linked to 1 common thing.

Friend gets 20 years and Vance cries while eating cherry ice cream because you aren't dead despite havijgnmany abortions.

These things aren't really likely, until they happen. Then... ? Suddenly it's like "Im sure glad I use Graphene and without Play Services and they can't prove metadata stuff, I'm sure glad I used SimpleX Chat." Most dont think they will be arrested, drawn into a war, involved in an accident, in a terrifying situation until it suddenly happens.

Some of these things are a mixed bag because you get real privacy with SimpleX Chat for everyone, even people who aren't cool. I had literal Nazis try to get me to join their group once before I realized they were Nazis and left. They also blocked me. I get the need to track awful people like this, but the government engages in corruption like torture still, so it's just unfortunate. An ethical government would be less scary.

It's fine to use Signal if your threat model is extremely low.

GrapheneOS

angela Signal doesn't require using the actual number assigned to your phone by a carrier. Using a number purchased with cryptocurrency is a basic precaution for apps requiring number-based verification.

Aside from that, politics and religion aren't permitted discussion topics in general, and the slim exceptions would be in the Off Topic tag. Talking about people's threat model doesn't require being specific about political aspects. You did not have to come up with such specific examples with a high potential to entirely derail the thread into political arguments.

Xtreix

angela Signal / Molly would be better without a phone number, you can buy a virtual phone number in cryptocurrency (preferably Monero) and try with it, but I don't think it's a big concern for most users, that Signal is only good for extremely low threat models is a very exaggerated claim, it's still good, the phone number is encrypted and not stored, you can also hide it from your contacts.

A phone number is not proof and if someone reports you, it's not the technology's fault, it could happen whatever messaging you use, but I agree that SimpleX probably does things better. If your threat model is very high, you should think about a good OPSEC first.

newbie24689

angela I agree with GRapheneOS - it'd be horrible if these discussions became contaminated with politics and political hot-button topics!

But this is AN EXTRAORDINARY WRITE UP! Intentionally and humorously "way over the top" it is arguably not political, but actually makes wonderful fun of American politics - and it communicates a number of important, subtle and not-so-subtle points. I hope that folks (Americans) can enjoy your excellent post regardless of their position on abortion or referenced politicians. Bravo! I plead for a one-time exception here.

angela

GrapheneOS you're right

sorry

i can edit or delete if you want, or a mod can just delete?

even if someone uses a non-linked number, if multiple people have it it's still a risk, like with xmpp. but with signal, even if you use an unlinked number, other people may not

it is just strange signal desperately wants that phone number. you also csnt simply uss it in linux. it MUST be linked to a cell phone device. It feels off. Why would someone make that choice if it's not a honeypot with a backdoor? What is the reasoning?

GrapheneOS

angela Signal was originally based around phone numbers and didn't support another way to contact people. The username feature and the ability to disable sharing the phone number and discovery through it was recently added. They didn't remove the requirement to have a phone number to prevent unlimited account creation to send enormous amounts of spam. Creating accounts without a phone number would need to require something like a cryptocurrency payment. Unfortunately, they have their odd ties to MobileCoin and are unlikely to simply add something like a one-time $5 payment via Monero to avoid needing a phone number.

Xtreix

GrapheneOS I had completely forgotten about their ties to MobileCoin, I've never used it but I just remember my astonishment when I saw it, not really knowing what to think of it at the time...

angela

GrapheneOS i understand the reason and that it's too prevent spam, but hackers and scammers can just use a temp #. it seems like a large privacy impact without a large spam impact. ive never seen a spammer on simplex. The numbers block spam argument feels flimsy and pretextual and I dont believe that's why they ask, despite no objective proof to support the feeling.