My experience after one week

brandy078

Hello community,

after using iPhones since the 3GS 15 years ago I switched to GrapheneOS last week with a pixel 8pro.

First of all I have to say the experience is quite good.

I really like the focus on privacy and some of the features, like sandboxed apps, sandboxes play services the possibility to deny a lot permissions for each app, the automatically turn of of WiFi, the possibillity to have two, or more separated profiles (I always wanted to keep work and private life separetatd) and some more. Also nice is the freedom I do have on an android phone with all the settings. As you know, iOS is much more restricted

What i don't like are some shortcomings in the integration of apps. For example: I use bit warden as PW manager. sometimes it works automatically when using Vandium or Brave. But most of the time i have to open it manually search for the right pw, copy and paste and so on. That is just annoying.
Never had such issues on iOS...

Also big miss for me is that i can't stream music from apple music (I do have a family subscription plan) or movies on my TV or HiFi receiver.

Things I also miss are Airdrop, iMessage (all my family uses iPhones) Apple Maps and Apple Mail. I use an iMac as well. And if good or not: The Apple ecosystem has some benefits.

And as a not only privacy oriented person but also an esthetic oriented person, the look of the apps on iOS is just much more beautiful as on android. I haven´t found just one nice calendar app. or something that works as nice as the foto app on iOS.

I know, that's complaining on a high level. Especially when you consider that GrapheneOS is a project that is provided free of charge. So please don't take my criticism the wrong way. From the point of view of data protection and privacy, GrapheneOS is definitely the gold standard.

But I hate it when things don't work the way they should or the way I'm used to.

Maybe I'm just not done learning yet.
But I have to hurry, the deadline for returning my Pixel is in the middle of next week.....

Please feel free to comment.

DeletedUser87

brandy078

First of all I have to say the experience is quite good.

Great to hear that!

What i don't like are some shortcomings in the integration of apps. For example: I use bit warden as PW manager. sometimes it works automatically when using Vandium or Brave. But most of the time i have to open it manually search for the right pw, copy and paste and so on. That is just annoying.
Never had such issues on iOS...

That's a problem that occurred more recently with the Bitwarden overhaul. You sometimes need to focus the password field, then set the cursor back to the username field to start the inline autofill. Some websites also don't use standard implementations of password fields, so that the password manager can't detect them. But that's more of a Bitwarden problem I feel like.

Also big miss for me is that i can't stream music from apple music (I do have a family subscription plan) or movies on my TV or HiFi receiver.

This is the part where I tell you about the ecosystem trap that Apple sets for its users. I strongly assume your Hi-Fi and TV don't support Google Cast, which works on Android compared to AirPlay on Apple devices. I have a Google Cast speaker at home and it's almost as flawless as AirPlay, but you need the right hardware sadly. There are apps that enable AirPlay streaming on Android, but I don't really recommend those as they feel quite shady to me.

Things I also miss are Airdrop, iMessage (all my family uses iPhones) Apple Maps and Apple Mail. I use an iMac as well. And if good or not: The Apple ecosystem has some benefits.

Even more ecosystem traps. Everything you miss is on Apple. Some of these apps and features can be in part replaced, some can not. For AirDrop I use Snapdrop (although it's a lot slower and needs a Wi-Fi connection), my iMessage replacement is Signal (although with Play Services you can now use RCS with Google's messaging app to text iOS users), Apple Maps can be replaced by Google Maps or Organic Maps, Apple Mail has no direct replacement, only FairEmail and K9Mail.

And as a not only privacy oriented person but also an esthetic oriented person, the look of the apps on iOS is just much more beautiful as on android. I haven´t found just one nice calendar app. or something that works as nice as the foto app on iOS.

That's true. Apple forces uniformity on app developers, which comes at a cost of privacy and open-source apps. More and more apps start to support MaterialYou which aims to fix that problem, it's certainly not there yet. For calendar I only found Fossify Calendar to be a somewhat worthy replacement, for photos I use a self-hosted Immich instance, which works and looks like Google Photos.

Maybe I'm just not done learning yet.

It takes time to adapt. Being used to one system for 15 years isn't going to change after a week. Especially not with a mindset of having things work one way (this is why most people complain about Linux. They think it should work like Windows for some odd reason). If you don't want to give it time, return the Pixel and stay with iPhone. It's not on par with GrapheneOS in terms of security and certainly not privacy (due to a general lack of isolation and control), but it's still better than most phones running Stock Android. Do whatever feels best for you!

TrustExecutor

brandy078
How much is your freedom, sovereignty and privacy worth?

treenutz68

brandy078

Overall, trust me, I feel your pain as someone who tried to make the switch to GrapheneOS and then switched back to an iPhone. I used an iPhone for several years, and quite literally every person I communicate with regularly uses an iPhone. That means I could not use iMessage or Facetime, which are most iPhone users preferred method of communication. Getting people to download and actually use Signal was quite a lift when they also only have iPhone users in their circles. Sharing photos/albums/files with loved ones was more challenging.

I understand that philosophically people should care and I definitely prefer an open source system to a closed source one. I exclusively run Linux Mint on my computers and I use GrapheneOS on a pixel tablet (because that is just a consumption device, I don't communicate with it).

However, I think there may be an argument to be made that if you do not use your phone for sensitive tasks and are generally a minimalist, there is limited downside to using an iPhone. Please allow me to elaborate.

I use my iPhone in the following way. I do not use iCloud so I don't need to worry about backup data going to apple and their promises of encrypting it. I do not use their apps like podcasts or apple mail, but instead use 3rd party apps. Siri is turned off. Generally, I followed all the guidelines provided by The New Oil and/or Michael Bazzell on how to best use an iPhone.

My iPhone is used for making phone calls, sending iMessages, sending emails (proton/tuta), listening to podcasts (overcast), google voice (for throwaway contacts), whatsapp (international contacts who exclusively use this), watching/listening to youtube videos (on brave browser so no adds & background play with screen off), and for business banking/credit card apps.

The way I figure, my SIM provider & ISP knows my location data at all times whether I use an iPhone or Graphene. They also knows my browsing history with either phone (if I don't use VPN). I don't do anything 'sensitive' on my iPhone. It is almost exclusively used with apps or communications where I am already 'identified'.

I use my computers or Graphene tablet for any type of sensitive browsing or just regular browsing while my iPhone is the daily carry that just works and I don't have much privacy expectation from it. I don't know what would be gained in this specific situation by switching my phone to Graphene.

I don't like the walled garden of apps that an iPhone offers. I don't like that they discriminate against some apps selectively. I don't like that they chatter all day long about where I am, what network I'm connected to, what other devices are connected to the same network, etc...

But I do like the bulletproof "it just works stupid" aspect of it. There is no app I've ever needed to use (cashapp, venmo come to mind) where I have fiddle with it or search online forums to figure out how to make them work. Again, I am a phone minimalist. I use it as a tool mostly for voice/sms communication and some entertainment on drives & when I have downtime (podcasts/videos). I think with the configurations I described above, there is fairly limited downside to using an iPhone.

If you're interested, here is the link to The New Oil recommended settings. And please do note, even they recommend using GrapheneOS over any other operating system if you have a high threat model:
https://thenewoil.org/en/guides/most-important/mobile-settings/

LocaLola

brandy078

Yes, Apple's ecosystem really does pull you in. So does Google's. It's all very convenient, you become dependent on it, and many, many people would trade any amount of their data for convenience. I would not expect the withdrawal to be smooth, and it apparently isn't. Give it time, and see if it works.
Most people around me use iPhones, while I never touched any of them for various reasons.

Until very recently, I refused to use WhatsApp, and I will not use it for anything more sensitive than casual communication. It is also in a separate profile all by itself blocked from going online by ProtonVPN.

I actually avoid using anything wireless at home. No Bluetooth, no wifi, not anything else. And I do have a speaker system. My TV is not allowed to go online.

I use a laptop whenever I can minimising my phone use (and screen time). I don't use any banking apps, for example.

I'm fine. :-) People do get surprised, it takes some getting used to. There is some pressure, but also never any really convincing argument other than convenience.

brandy078

DeletedUser87 Thank you.

treenutz68

One other note as it is too late for me to edit the previous post. If you'd like some more opinions on why NOT to use apple/iphone, I did find the below thread quite interesting:
https://stacker.news/items/447944

fid02

treenutz68 If you've tried GrapheneOS and concluded it's not for you, your next best choice for privacy and security is indeed an iPhone that is still receiving OS updates.

vagr

treenutz68 Was casually browsing through the posts and saw this post. Wanted to like it and comment so here goes: I did try to make the switch to graphene and switched back regretfully to iPhone for almost the same reasons and situations as above. One more reason I feel that contributed to the reason was handling the pixel was too cumbersome for me even though my use of mobile devices are minimal. When I used a graphene device it had a minimal however size coupled with getting some proprietary apps to work took some time when this comes during an emergency it bothers me. For peace of mind I have stuck to using iPhone mini as a daily driver tool primarily for communication and anything that involves adding a payment method. I use grapheneOS device as a secondary for browsing and alternate podcast device.

brandy078

treenutz68 Thank you

brandy078

fid02 It's not that Graphene is not for me. I REALLY like it. It's just that im missing some things... but maybe I just need some days more to decide.

Graphene1

I think the transition from iOS to GrapheneOS isn't the issue. It's the transition from iOS to Android in general. It takes time to adjust and accept some UI/ UX designs are worse in some scenarios and better in others.

The choice to use an alternative OS like GOS for many isn't because it offers a better experience, its the freedom to choose how you use your device and to send a message to big tech that we don't want mass surveillance (although GOS isn't a silver bullet it can almost certainly benefit in this area if used in an informed way)

Iv been on GOS for coming up to three years, and the first few months I did go back to iOS however I soon realised the right choice isn't always the easiest choice and soon ditched the iPhone for good. Whether others agree or not an iPhone is a surveillance tool and I truely believe the more people ditch iOS for this reason the better the outcome will be for everyone.

Be the change you want to see in the world. Or don't, I get it, iPhones are shiny and have a lovely UI at the expense of total surveillance. You have to do what's best for your situation and what you believe in/ care about.

treenutz68

Graphene1

I agree with everything you said, except part of the second to last sentence: at the expense of total surveillance

I'm not sure if there is any proof of that being true, but would love to see it if you could share. That is actually one of my fears about an iPhone, that there may be total surveillance, but I have yet to see any proof of that being true. I imagine if that were true, there wouldn't be grapheneOS devs saying an iPhone is pretty good at privacy. I'd also point you to this stacker news thread (https://stacker.news/items/705242) where a grapheneOS moderator @final says:

" I could probably meet my same requirements with an iPhone and Signal" and "iPhones are predominantly a target by sophisticated actors with moderate success, but the scope of who they target is also extremely limited and not a concern for most."

In response to a person asking if iPhones are tracking and sending back to Apple every screen wake, touch screen interaction, app download, etc... his response was:
"That's excessive and unnecessary and information like that isn't valuable enough to build infrastructure to collect of it's billions of users. Important information is what is identifiable or provides details on key events of the person / device, and having a full chronological timeline down to the press is bloated intelligence.
You should expect Apple to know what information you provide on your Apple ID and activities on Apple's services that are not end-to-end encrypted. iCloud provides an end-to-end encryption option but it's not a default so the content (files, contacts, messages) can be accessed on there. E2EE is default for iMessage but if iCloud backups are enabled for iMessage then Apple could provide decryption keys for the content if that backup isn't end-to-end encrypted."

brandy078

Graphene1 Words of wisdom

DeletedUser69

Thanks to this community I have learned that I can run most secure mobile OS on currently most secure hardware on the planet. This is my baseline. By restricting my app choice I am ensuring that I add minimum attack surface. This is very important. I source my apps either directly from GitHub from developers with high ratings or from Google Play via Aurora Store (which eliminates the need to use Play Services). Only through control and restriction of your app choice you can achieve meaningful privacy improvements. The OS controls the hardware. Certain technologies are outdated and insecure and I try to stay away from those as much as I can. I don't wish to operate anonymously but my privacy is an asset I value very much. GrapheneOS the way I use it successfully helps me deliver it. GrapheneOS devs, thank you very much, you are my heroes.

Graphene1

treenutz68 it's hard to prove anything when it's all closed source. If Apple where not conducting surveillance you wouldn't need an Apple ID and soft KYC to install an app. You'd also be able to switch off your device.

Install a program like little snitch on a MacBook and you'll soon realize every click you make, every file you open, literally everything you do individual connections are made to apple servers pinging telemetry (even without being logged into an Apple account) literally hundreds of constant connections.

Do we really think iPhones don't have this level of telemetry?

Xtreix

treenutz68 I'd also point you to this stacker news thread (https://stacker.news/items/705242)

Thanks so much for sharing, it's a great article written by a trustworthy person.

de0u

Graphene1 Install a program like little snitch on a MacBook and you'll soon realize every click you make, every file you open, literally everything you do individual connections are made to apple servers pinging telemetry (even without being logged into an Apple account) literally hundreds of constant connections.

Every click? Every file?

missing-root

Hi there, the thread is already quite full so not want to spam

Really cool that you made the switch! How do you get your apps? All from Google Play? Because otherwise this isnt very clear.

The password manager on iOS is different from KeepassDX, I dont know about Bitwarden. Have you tried disabling battery optimization for Bitwarden?

On iOS the system stores what logins you want unencrypted, or at least quickly accessible. Only the passwords need to be decrypted or unlocked on demand. This is a waaay better approach than traditional password managers, if you trust the device, metadata is unencrypted, and you want to use autofill.

I personally use the vanadium and Mull password managers, which work well. I use KeepassDX with Syncthing-Fork, to have my passwords everywhere. But I also use the synced Firefox password manager. Poorly firefox on Android is not very secure but has support for great addons like UBlock-Origin, which I recently got setup to use for javascript blocking as well.

The app ecosystem is way more chaotic, as they are all FOSS. For calendar I like Fossify Calendar. The proton ecosystem may be easy to use with sync and all, and look nice.

If you flee the grip of big brother, you will need multiple solutions likely.

For filesharing, use LocalSend. It is not as easy, but you can use it over wifi and hotspot, it works better than Bluetooth.

Mail, well you should get a different mail provider. Privacyguides.org has a big list.

Thunderbird Android is a nice and easy to use App.

For navigation, you can use Google Maps as webapp from Vanadium. Dont know about apple maps, but that should be good.

You can also always install apps. If you want to isolate them, use the private space. If you want to have another isolated location, install shelter and setup the work profile.

For navigation I use OSMAnd~ which you can get paid from the PlayStore or for free from F-Droid. It is a very powerful but sometimes buggy and pretty complex app.

OrganicMaps is easier to use and very smooth

brandy078

missing-root Thank you!

Graphene1

de0u it seems that way.. Try it, put little snitch in alert mode where you have to individually accept or deny each connection then try do anything 😬