tempted to transition from GOS to iOS

DeletedUser26

ILIKETRAINS You can add an emulated button as well with assistive touch. You have a lot of customizability with it. I like swipe gestures personally over fake buttons.

Look, E2EE is E2EE. They literally can’t do anything with data they don’t have. TOS is irrelevant.

DeletedUser26

GrouchyGrape there is a back gesture. Swipe from the left part of the screen to the right part of the screen starting from the edge.

Swiping from the bottom of the screen goes to your previous app. It’s just like on Android.

There are universal DNS settings you just have to install a DNS profile

GrouchyGrape

DeletedUser26 The "back" gesture is not a universal back gesture like on android. It's entirely dependent on the app developer. I just tested the dozen apps I use for work, 4 of them utilize the back gesture..

The universal DNS profile does not seem to work anywhere near as clean as it does on android. Unless I'm missing something, you have to use a VPN profile to use universal dns

DeletedUser26

GrouchyGrape No a DNS profile isn’t a VPN. You can set them up and install them off of the website of many encrypted DNS providers. NextDNS has a nice thing where you can set up and download a profile off their site. Many other DNS providers have a similar thing.

It’s true that the back gesture isn’t as utilized in iOS, I think the only reason it works more on Android is that it’s more of an established thing.

DeletedUser26

GrouchyGrape The back gesture works in most apps I have installed, maybe you could request that the developers of the software you use implement it.

Phead

Sbpr
Yes, you're right. Apologies if I failed to express myself clearly. What I meant to say was that the convenience Apple provides right off the bat lures the standard user into a difficult situation. It's easy to just start using the device without ever "wasting" a second thought about it. I did not argue that it's a good thing, just the easy thing to do and many users might prefer easy above anything else: "It just works."

On the other hand, the freedom GrapheneOS (and, for that matter, Stock Android) provides comes with a greater responsibility. When you decide to stay away from the Play Store and use APKs instead you're risking to come across malware if you're not careful enough. The iPhone makes it easy to install apps without the risk to install malware (not entirely but it minimizes the risk just like the Play Store does; neither is perfect though) without giving you any options to choose from. The standard iOS user does not have to think about anything privacy or security related. iOS suggests you're in good hands and, to be honest, it could be worse.

So, in short, the convenience Apple provides is good for users who are not willing to invest time and brain power to search for alternatives to the easy, the convenient way. Such users might actually compromise their devices if left alone with a GOS device simply because they do not tend to be willing to invest the time necessary to make educated, solid decisions when it comes to Play Store alternatives. Simply downloading stuff from github and hoping for the best does not make for a secure, malware free device. It's not even a bad thing to prefer "just works" - just a different approach.

AlanZ

So, in short, the convenience Apple provides is good for users who are not willing to invest time and brain power to search for alternatives to the easy, the convenient way.

I've been willing to invest all the time, money and "brainpower", lol in the last three years and I still vastly prefer iOS.

Phead

AlanZ
Yet you are here. Please, elaborate on why you're using GrapheneOS if you prefer iOS.

N1b

Phead they have elaborated their reasons right here: https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/10979-tempted-to-transition-from-gos-to-ios/51

I can understand people that love iOS for convenience, design, interoperability etc.. Personally I don't like the iOS design and how everything is limited to the one "correct" Apple way, but for people enjoying the user experience and workflow, it will be unmatched.

The thing I really hate is Apple's marketing lies when it comes to privacy. Instead of being mostly transparent like Google ("sure thing we collect all your data, here's how we protect them against anyone that doesn't pay us for it"), Apple pretends "everything that happens on your iPhone stays on your iPhone" and they are so so so bad at actually keeping this promise if you look a tiny bit behind their marketing (aka read their official privacy policy or just ask simple questions like "why do I have to register an Apple ID to use my phone?").

I love security and privacy, and nothing will give me that except GrapheneOS, so I'm using whatever device let's me run it. If only iPhones were supported and GrapheneOS was based on some Open Source version of iOS, I'd gladly use that. I'm just lucky that I prefer most of Android's design choices, but that's all secondary to me.

DeletedUser26

N1b Well you have to define what data you’re trying to protect first before you can evaluate whether something meets your criteria. Saying something isn’t private makes no sense when you haven’t defined what you’re protecting and from who. Just like Apple’s marketing claim doesn’t make sense because there’s no defined threat model. Blanket statements like “x is not private” aren’t helpful.

Phead

N1b

N1b they have elaborated their reasons right here: https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/10979-tempted-to-transition-from-gos-to-ios/51

Right. But that was what i was trying to point out. Despite prefering big chunks of iOS they dedcided to switch to a - arguably - less convenient OS. I know many people who just refuse to make that jump simply because Android feels weird to them and they are not willing to adapt to it. Even less so when they are being told to flash the OS with something as unique as GrapheneOS. The hurdle is way to high for them, even it's only in their minds.

N1b

DeletedUser26 you're obviously right. I'm a big advocate of threat modeling (just read like every other post of mine :D). It's not easy to get people to ask the right questions, but most users here have a good idea.

That being said, I feel like most people's threat model would involve getting rid of iOS eventually. If getting profiled by big tech is part of that model at least...

DeletedUser26

N1b Well I’m not sure what you mean by profiled. They have telemetry and whatnot in the App Store but as far as your actual data goes, with advanced data protection they can’t access your files anyway. I don’t mind if they know what I search on the App Store or where I tap, I’m concerned about protecting my files and personal data like passwords accounts etc from thieves and data breaches which iOS does well against. GrapheneOS of course has the best security of any OS out there, love the project and love Android. If you’re concerned about the telemetry and whatnot or you’re up against state backed targeted malware or even something like Cellebrite GrapheneOS gives the best protection hands down. It’s just simply not what I’m personally worried about though.

N1b

DeletedUser26 Well I’m not sure what you mean by profiled

I mean Apple making a profile of you and your habits, data, files etc. to (ab)use sometime now or in the future in means we can not predict. 10 years from now, Apple might get a leadership change and publicly decide they're an ad company now (I'd call them an ad company already, just secretly). Your most obvious profile is your Apple ID that they force you to do in order to use your iPhone in any meaningful way, but even if you try to avoid that or give them false data, they can easily identify and profile you in many other ways. By default, Apple and Google have more control over the device that you bought and "own", and on Apple devices there's simply no reasonable way of changing that.

DeletedUser26 I’m concerned about protecting my files and personal data like passwords accounts etc from thieves and data breaches which iOS does well against.

There have been leaks every once in a while, most famously the Fappening incident. Yes Apple is one of the best in the world when it comes to protecting your files, but it doesn't matter much if they have a major leak every 5 to 10 years. The only way to protect your files and data is to not share it at all in my opinion. But that's not always feasible, so the second best thing is to compartmentalize over many services so the inevitable leak doesn't get you into much trouble. On iOS, you need to opt out of iCloud synchronization to not have all your data in one place online (and as mentioned you need to have an iCloud account that collects at least metadata and then some).

Yes I know that most of what I write is oversimplified, and Apple likely does not collect everything because they know of the risks involved. I could be more detailed, but this post is already getting too long and I'm trying to bring a point across.

If you have the chance and time, listen to The Hated One Podcast episode 79 from 2022, and watch the video I linked further above in this thread. I wouldn't trust Apple to keep my files offline and secure if I had to use iOS.

Everything I wrote counts just as well for Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook etc.. Apple is better than many, but far from good enough or trustworthy in my opinion.

DeletedUser26

N1b I mean Apple making a profile of you and your habits, data, files etc. to (ab)use sometime now or in the future in means we can not predict.

Apple is very clear about what it uses for ad personalization. They don’t sell your info to third parties and you can opt out of it anyway.

Turning off Personalized Ads will prevent Apple from using this information for ad personalization.

Also worth noting that Apple’s advertising is limited to their own platforms and not everywhere on the web like with Google.

N1b There have been leaks every once in a while, most famously the Fappening incident. Yes Apple is one of the best in the world when it comes to protecting your files, but it doesn't matter much if they have a major leak every 5 to 10 years.

It’s not possible for my files to leak in a data breach because of E2EE, which they didn’t offer at the time of the incident you refer to (which was not a breach of their servers but a phishing attack anyway).

I have some issues with The Hated One, he makes some good videos but when he covers iOS it’s always very alarmist and it perpetuates the black and white “X or Y is not private” sort of thinking that I see a lot online.

redfoxjumper

DeletedUser26 I have some issues with The Hated One, he makes some good videos but when he covers iOS it’s always very alarmist and it perpetuates the black and white “X or Y is not private” sort of thinking that I see a lot online.

I agree with this x1000

His main video on the topic talked about how Apple sucks up all your data and gives examples from the Siri privacy policy. He neglects to mention that in said policy, it is also stated that an anonymous identifier is used which is not tied to your Apple ID. Admittedly you're talking their word on it (not open source), but still. At least with Apple when you run any of their apps for the first time, there is always a privacy button that tells you or links you to exactly what specific data collect, whether or how it is anonymised, etc. In contrast, Google just links you to their generic privacy policy in general which lets them collect anything they want.

[deleted]

redfoxjumper regardless of what privacy theater info you are been fed, if you have no possibility to review the source code, you might as well distrust it.

redfoxjumper

[deleted] It could be argued that there is minimal difference between there being no source code and the source code being available but you have never personally reviewed it or compiled it personally.

AlanZ

[deleted]

regardless of what privacy theater info you are been fed

Speaking of theatrics, The Hated One seems to deliver by the shovelful. Maybe he should change his name to "The Amusing One". Guys like him are a dime a dozen in the privacy realm. Gabriel Custodiet seems to be another one.

[deleted]

redfoxjumper fair point, I wouldn't review it personally, but there are security researchers out there who dedicate their lives to doing these things. And word gets out.

DeletedUser26

[deleted] Security researchers analyze iOS as well. They don’t need the source code necessarily.

[deleted]

DeletedUser26 you choose your level of privacy and I choose mine. Guess what, I will stick with security and privacy hardened fork of Android.

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