Can seedvault be used to migrate from one GOS phone to another?

cb474

Can seedvault be used to migrate from a phone with GrapheneOS to another phone with a new GrapheneOS install? Would one just copy the .SeedVaultAndroidBackup folder to the new phone and restore from there (using the recovery code)?

other8026

cb474 maybe, maybe not. Many people have reported that the app just said the folder couldn't be found. If you want to switch phones, my suggestion would be to do a manual backup as well just to play it safe.

Also, what people say in this thread might help you get an idea of what to expect from Seedvault: https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/6025-megathread-first-hand-experiences-with-seedvault

cb474

other8026 Ironically, after only a couple posts, that thread devolves into discussing other backup/restore options and using root. It sounds like seedvault has a lot of problems. It's kind of nuts that the devs/moderators are constantly warning people about how bad root is for security, but people are driven to it anyway, because there is no reasonable way to migrate from one phone to another. This is probably the biggest lacking feature in GrapheneOS and really stands in the way of anybody adopting it, who is not technical and doesn't have a lot of time on their hands. I also wonder how much it makes people with end of life phones not want to upgrade, because migrating is such a pain. Anyway, I guess I'll give seedvault a go, but I'm not expecting much.

other8026

cb474 It sounds like seedvault has a lot of problems.
cb474 I guess I'll give seedvault a go, but I'm not expecting much.

Right. It has lots of problems and it's best to keep your expectations low. Though keep in mind that people are usually more likely to come here to complain that something is broken than they are to come here to praise something that "just works." I've seen others on here that have said that they've used Seedvault numerous times and it worked for them each time. So it's possible it'll work for you. Hopefully it does.

cb474 This is probably the biggest lacking feature in GrapheneOS and really stands in the way of anybody adopting it

It's my understanding that the project is very aware of this. Adding a new and functional backup/restore solution has been high on many people's wish list. However since backup/restore only has to happen when changing phones, Seedvault being terrible comes up way less than other issues, ones that affect people daily.

I don't have any insider information, but I've seen them say publicly that they're expanding. So hopefully when new people join the project, they will be able to continue the work they've been doing and also attend to addressing this lack of a reliable backup solution.

de0u

cb474 This is probably the biggest lacking feature in GrapheneOS and really stands in the way of anybody adopting it, who is not technical and doesn't have a lot of time on their hands.

It's a hard problem. A fix is planned "within a year": https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/9412-anything-better-than-adb-root-for-full-backups-currently/2

N3rdTek

other8026
I'm the OP of that thread 👋
I would heavily argue as I'm sure most would in general, but this may not be a supercritical issue compared to most others, this is still something that is quite literally quality of life and detrimental to not only adopting but properly using a device.

As it stands, there is currently no way to properly for sure and safely back up your phone and know that the backup will be restorable. It is quite simply, a gamble. For my understanding you could create a backup restore it verify it works but then if you go to try and use it again later it could simply not work anymore.

other8026

N3rdTek no argument here. A replacement is needed.

Based on what I've seen in the Discord / Matrix chat rooms, they say that they need to hire more developers or to get more help from people in the community who can do some programming work.

A backup app needs to be created from scratch since Android changed the way backups work. The method Seedvault uses is depreciated (adb backup if I remember correctly). Whatever they come up with has to be stable, secure, support different targets to back up to, and it should be possible to restore from backups from the setup wizard.

Getting all of this together is a big project, and would require the undivided attention from one or more developers. That's why I mentioned that the project is expanding in my previous comment. Hopefully a good backup solution is going to be available soon.

cb474

de0u Hmm, that "within a year" comment is from three days ago. But I feel like I have seen other similar comments for at least a year. So I'm taking that with a big grain of salt.

I think I come down on the side of thinking this is not a minor issue, but rather singularly stands in the way of people adopting GrapheneOS. People are used to getting new phones all the time and just doing some easy migration process, plugging the phones together or through the cloud. No normal person would put up with (or even be able to figure how to) deal with what it takes to move to a Graphene phone.

That said, I suppose the most imporant thing is to make migration from stock Android or an iPhone easy. That may be technically complicated, I don't know. But I'm a bit baffled how this is not at least relatively simple when going from one Graphene phone to another.

I admit I really don't understand the overall structure of Android that well. So perhaps this is way more technically difficult than it seems. But at least from my experience with Linux, it seems like all this takes is an application with the appropriate system privileges to copy files from the correct folders to the same folders on the other phone. On the desktop, that is trivially simple. So I don't really get it. It would be interesting to hear an explanation of why it's not that simple, if that's the case.

All that aside, I'll try to report back with how my seedvault experience goes.

de0u

cb474 I admit I really don't understand the overall structure of Android that well. So perhaps this is way more technically difficult than it seems. But at least from my experience with Linux, it seems like all this takes is an application with the appropriate system privileges to copy files from the correct folders to the same folders on the other phone. On the desktop, that is trivially simple.

Linux doesn't have "appropriate system privileges" - it has one giant inappropriate system privilege. If an attacker can get the giant inappropriate system privilege, which happens a lot, it is possible to exfiltrate everything, or corrupt anything.

Lots of things are straightforward if security is not an issue. Google and Apple have cloud backup/restore systems believed to be pretty secure, but that doesn't mean writing them was simple.

yosk

cb474 But I feel like I have seen other similar comments for at least a year.

GrapheneOS' github did have an empty repo named "ExperimentalBackup" last year [1].

that repo had a fork with more commits, by empratyush, a GrapheneOS dev, but it has since been privated/deleted, and i can't find it on google's cache or the wayback machine [2].

the original repo is now archived at GrapheneOS-Archive [3], GrapheneOS' public archive for dead/unmaintained repos.

i've been following the news on GrapheneOS' backup solution for a while now, but there's no real progress (atleast publicly).

i understand that a backup solution isn't really a main focus for the devs right now, which is understandable, but it is a concern for most users dealing with such as myself who've had issues with seedvault and manual backups. i guess i'll wait till seedvault leverages device-to-device backups [4], which seems promising. or GrapheneOS' backup solution, whichever comes first.

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20221228014153/https://github.com/GrapheneOS/ExperimentalBackup

[2] https://github.com/empratyush/ExperimentalBackup (now 404)

[3] https://github.com/GrapheneOS-Archive/ExperimentalBackup

[4] https://github.com/seedvault-app/seedvault/pull/478

cb474

de0u Yeah, but obiously there are processes (such as seedvault itself) that has the privileges to access the appropriate folders. So there just needs to be a way to grant those privileges to seedvault if it is plugged into another device for migrating purposes. Even more simply, if seedvault can mount a backup folder in the cloud or on a usb drive and then restore from there, why can't it do it from another phone? Afterall, the backup seedvault folder on the other phone is just stored in userspace and accessible to the user themselves. It's not super locked down. So I still don't get why it's a big deal.

de0u

cb474 So there just needs to be a way to grant those privileges to seedvault if it is plugged into another device for migrating purposes. Even more simply, if seedvault can mount a backup folder in the cloud or on a usb drive and then restore from there, why can't it do it from another phone?

It seems maybe I was misunderstanding your suggestion.

What the GrapheneOS project reportedly plans to do in the next year is to stop using SeedVault and write a new backup system from scratch. That is not straightforward.

It would also not be super-straightforward (though much easier!) to add SeedVault-to-SeedVault communications. Essentially SeedVault on one of the phones would need to be a server for SeedVault on the other phone, and at present SeedVault has only client networking code (to store to a cloud server or fetch from it). In the Apple ecosystem, I think they had cloud backup from iOS devices for multiple years before they added phone-to-phone transfer. It's a nice feature, but it does take some work.

cb474

de0u Yes, writing a whole new backup system would be a lot of work.

cb474

yosk Yeah, so far my efforts to migrate using seedvault are not going so great. It restored seemingly okay from a usbdrive, during the Graphene setup process. And it was nice that a lot of apps and settings carried over. But as I explained in a different thread, by messages were missing all the images. I then tried using SMS Backup & Restore instead and this lead to strange results, like a separate thread being created just for the images that a particular person sent me. Meanwhile, the Google camera app that seedvault restored kept crashing.

It also seems like although seedvault restored a lot of apps and settings, it was a bit random what settings carried over, even specific to a particular app, so I felt like I was going to have to go through everything manually anyway.

All this leaves me wondering what other buggy things will arise later. I did not have weird issues when I set up my first Graphene device and just moved things over manually (although that was a pain).

I think I'm going to just start over, reinstall Graphene, and move things manually. See if that works better.

N3rdTek

cb474 please let us know how it goes.

GrapheneOS's goals to have a new solution "within the next year" has been talked of for at least 2-3 years if I recall correctly, though i don't have any sources to cite most can be found within the forum search tool.

What they should do is fork and existing project like they were planning with Florisboard. This carries it's own set of issues however due to open source licensing, but would be better than devising am entirely new solution from scratch.

Is this more critical than say, patching a newly discovered CVE? No.
Is this more important than getting the new pixel 8 running stable and with enough features stand out from a pixel 7 pro? No.
Is this still important enough where it severely cripples more wide adoption and use of GoS? ABSOLUTELY.

As it stands, those who use or require the apps wasted or I think the other called duress are left with no active backup\restore solution besides the last time they manually backed up each app and service themselves. This however quickly devolves into being the "users responsibility" to ensure a proper backup was performed, a fair argument..... If it wasn't for the fact I've yet to see any other ROM privacy\security focused or otherwise have this kind of problem. 100% unique to GrapheneOS.

One of my earlier arguments from the referenced thread earlier still stands; at what point is de-googling going from protecting users privacy & security to severely massive inconvenience? Users should have choices or options for at least SOMETHING.

maybe 2 versions of GrapheneOS can be devised? One with current implementation, one with the proper Google services left in the base code so at least users can perform a regular Google cloud backup if they're willing to accept the risk of any potential data leak\harvesting from Google? At least then those who need\require regular backups can rest easy not having to manually backup everything every night.

I've been having janky performance issues I'm sure a fresh install would fix. But because it would take me a day or more to backup and restore everything I'd honestly rather leave the phone as is, and just make a new user profile every now and then as it's basically like a fresh install.

¯⁠\⁠⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠⁠/⁠¯ it's incredibly stupid to resort to that but it's an option I've found that works for now

cb474

N3rdTek I feel your pain. I managed to resolve my issues with restoring sms/mms on my new device, after getting a helpful suggestion from someone in another thread. And I fixed the camera app crashing issue by clearing the cache and storage, uninstalling the app, and reinstalling it.

Now I noticed another weird issue. Apps restored by seedvault that originally came from the play store on my previous device, show up in play store under installed apps. But if I click on a specific app, it lists devices the app is available on (my old phone and the new one) and says "install" next to my new phone (even though the app is installed). It's as if google play can tell the app is installed but thinks its seeing the app on the old phone. I don't know. It's weird. I wonder if this will matter? Will play appropriately offer updates when they are available? Or do I need to go through every app and click "install" even though the app is installed?

Anyway, yeah, I have spent hours over two days trying to migrate to my new device and I'm still not close to done yet. This has to be a huge barrier to new users for GOS. I can't imagine anyone I know putting up with this.

cb474

Well, I realized the weird thing I was seeing in the google play store, with the option to install apps on my new phone, where they are already installed, was due to my new phone having somehow got registered twice with my google account as two different devices. I suspect this has to do with seedvault restoring the apps, but them not showing up as installed in the GrapheneOS Apps app, so then having to install them again from there. Apparently it is a known problem to have the same device registered twice as a duplicate device with one's Google account, but there is no good solution. (Sometimes it happens after factory resets.)

But the end result is that Google Play is behaving in weird ways. Not showing updates for apps that have updates, not given notifications when there are updates available, not installing an app after I hit update but instead creating a popup asking if I want to install the app.

I'm also getting some buggy behavior from Photos, Calendar, and Voice. As I write this, I guess most of my buggy behavior has been with Google apps that are linked to my Google account.

So it seems like restoring apps with seedvault may not have gone well. It basically restores things, but little underlying elements are not setup right, perhaps. It's too bad you can't manually select what to restore or not restore.

I think I'm going to end up doing a factory reset, when I have time, and copy things over manually. Bummer.

de0u

cb474 Well, I realized the weird thing I was seeing in the google play store, with the option to install apps on my new phone, where they are already installed, was due to my new phone having somehow got registered twice with my google account as two different devices. I suspect this has to do with seedvault restoring the apps, but them not showing up as installed in the GrapheneOS Apps app, so then having to install them again from there.

Thanks for the report! That is a phenomenon worth knowing about. Hopefully the GrapheneOS developers can keep it in mind.

[deleted]

When i used sandboxed Google Play and did a factory reset one of the hardware IDs must have changed which Google analytics picks up because several apps mentioned in account settings a new device linked to that account while the info about the old one was still present. Anyway has an idea which ID is the one that changes with factory reset?

de0u

[deleted] Anyway has an idea which ID is the one that changes with factory reset?

Maybe more than one? https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/04/changes-to-device-identifiers-in.html?m=1

cb474

[deleted] Yeah, I think I spoke too soon. Searching around online, it seems like ending up with duplicated devices (the same device listed twice, as if it's too different ones in one's Google account or in Play Store) is a thing that happens pretty often. Doing a factory reset seems to be one of the things that causes this. So it's not specific to Graphene or Seedvault. It's annoying though and there seems to be no solution. You can log out of the fictive device, but it will still show up in Play Store.