Why a working backup and restore system is necessary for security

LeslieFH

A long, long time ago I used rooted Android phones with Titanium Backup. A working root-level backup solution enables backing up and restoring phone very rapidly and effectively, in the same manner people can back up and restore desktop/laptop OSes.

Android with a "no root access" policy can't do this, and Seedvault on GrapheneOS can't provide convenient and rapid backup and restore of all data.

Why this matters for security?

Because a working root-level backup and restore system is currently absolutely necessary to ensure security and legal safety while travelling through national borders, as the case of the person just charged with destruction of evidence for using duress pasword on GOS when requested by CBP to provide the contents of his phone testifies.

The only surefire way to prevent seizure of digital data while travelling through national borders is to wipe the phone clean, travel to another country with just the necessary apps (airline app, some Candy Crush or something, maybe a few photos) and then restore all data after passing the "no rights" zone.

But I'm not doing that with Seedvault.

Decimator

LeslieFH Because a working root-level backup and restore system is currently absolutely necessary to ensure security and legal safety ...

agreed - i also used to use Titanium and i had hoped that GOS would've rolled out their own solution by now because Seedvault is crap

Norman

Another massive benefit of a strong and consistent backup solution is for travel.
As we all know, border control of any country can force you to hand over your device or straight up deny you entry for not handing over your PIN.
The best way to safely cross a border, especially if you need to enter the country without any possible complications, is to make a backup of your phone and wipe it. Then send the backup to a trusted contact or upload it to a secure server and only reload the backup after you have entered the country.
This flow is currently not easily possible in GrapheneOS. You can do it, but it is a hassle. Especially if you travel a lot.

drssek

Could not agree more, seedvault is crap and always has been. And the current dev seems unwilling to address pain points adequately (see this as example: https://github.com/seedvault-app/seedvault/issues/143#issuecomment-706291854). We need a replacement, overhaul, or at least a competent fork of seedvault.

GrouchyGrape

LeslieFH The devs & team are well aware of the desire/need for a seedvault replacement. They've said as much. Unless I'm missing an announcement, it's still a planned feature.

Enabling root access to take backups is not the solution. Currently, the best method is sticking to apps that have native backup functions (e.g. newpipe, obtainium, molly/signal, nextcloud, etc). I can be back up and running from a factory reset in less than 30 min. It's annoying having to sign back in to my apps, configure settings, etc, but I've just learned to care less about unnecessary customizations.

Obtainium + nextcloud folder sync (to sync my local app backups to the "cloud") are seriously an awesome combo.

LeslieFH

GrouchyGrape

But I don't want to cede control over my phone to apps, this is why I'm using Graphene, so for example I can kill an apps Internet permission.

I don't understand why we get to sandbox Google, cut off any app's communication, but if an app says "no backup" we don't get a backup.

Carrousel7956

LeslieFH what apps specifically are you having trouble with

Viewpoint0232

LeslieFH

100% agree. Same for apps saying "no screenshot". It's MY phone, why does an app think it knows better?

Carrousel7956 what apps specifically are you having trouble with

There's several apps that don't provide any data for backup with Seedvault. Some I can kind of understand, like banking apps, some others are more annoying - for example on my phone I have Ente, kDrive, Mega, Tuta, Whatsapp all saying "no data for backup" and others pretend to allow a backup but actually don't (e.g. Signal's backup is only 20 KB).

House_Wins

GrouchyGrape Genuine question, why is rooting for backups considered so bad? I really wish there was a way to backup properly and restore it without spending hours. I always have this fear of losing my phone on vacation, if that happens I'm pretty much screwed.

One thing I liked about Apple is the ICloud, the fact that you can restore everything on a new phone in 5mins. If root backups were an option I feel like we can have our backup on our self-hosted cloud and restore from anywhere through Netbird / Tailscale.

Norman

House_Wins because rooting your phone breaks security

House_Wins

Norman As in it breaks GrapheneOS in some way or just makes it less secure? If it's the latter then that's fine for most people depending on their threat level. If someone's threat level is just privacy and has no plans of their phone ending up in the authorities hands then does rooting have any negative effects?

My questions might sound dumb, but I'm genuinely asking.

LeslieFH

House_Wins

Although iCloud doesn't backup everything too, people come to the Signal forum regularly complaining of lost chat history because they assumed it will be in the iCloud backup.

And of course rooting is a hole in the security model, but rooting is only needed for third-party backup solutions, the OS has root so Graphene could have a backup solution that just ignores apps telling it not to backup their data just like it can ignore apps telling it to give them Internet connectivity ;-)

House_Wins

LeslieFH True, but Icloud does enough for a quick restore of 90% stuff. Things like signal I assumed most users knew it wouldn't get backed up, it would defeat the purpose of signal to have all your data backed up on Apple servers, even if it's encrypted.

I just want to know how bad of a security hit will I take if I root my device. I feel like we really need a proper backup solution especially with all the negative news about GrapheneOS lately being pushed by the governments it's only a matter of time people will get denied entry in to some countries if they see you have Graphene installed. A root level backup could come in clutch for those type of situations.

GrapheneOS

House_Wins Replacing the core of the OS with a third party rootkit not preserving the security model will drastically reduce security. You'll no longer have basic security intact. Every app written to depend on this approach is handling security very poorly. If that wasn't the case, those would be properly implemented following basic security best practices including only requiring the permissions required to do what they need. You don't understand what you would be doing to the OS which is a clear reason to avoid doing it. You would no longer be using GrapheneOS and would no longer have basic security. It will likely result in a soft bricked device and data loss.

GrapheneOS

LeslieFH GrapheneOS has a working backup system so this thread is based on a false premise. You're proposing an anti-security approach massively undermining the security of the OS. You're proposing it to use anti-security projects written with extreme disregard for it which have no place being used as part of any serious approach to security. We will not destroy the security of the OS or use anti-security software.

House_Wins

GrapheneOS Thanks the information, that's why I was asking, I even mentioned it might be a dumb question since I'm not educated on the subject enough. And I wasn't the one purposing it, I just saw OPs thread and I thought it was a good place to ask if rooting was safe for backups.

Also you mentioned Graphene does have a backup solution, I'm guessing that's seedvault right? Maybe it was my experience, but when I tried it out awhile ago I didn't have a good experience with it. It failed to restore even my settings when I tried to transfer my stuff from my old pixel to a new one, maybe I didn't use it right.

Is seedvault the best option to fully backup and restore, I'm planning on traveling to a country that's known to be very against graphene and I hoping there was a way I could backup all my data and install the stock OS until it was safe to restore graphene.

mar2112

An option for crossing borders is to buy a travel phone.

GrapheneOS-Jub

I cross borders a lot and carry a Graphene phone with very few apps install on it.
I backup my apps from the apps own backup, the rest are using seedvault.
The File App connects to Proton Drive when I'm logged into the drive and all backup files are in the drive. I use 5 different profiles.
Strip the messaging apps of confidential messages and restore the recent backup thereafter.
Other apps can be reinstalled later by reinstalling and logging back to drive.
I wonder what Apps and files are you guys safeguarding?

Novaliss

If anyone have missed it: Vanadium bookmarks are import-export-able since rather recently.

FunkTastic

@GrapheneOS Can we at least get the export/import option for the profile settings, please? It takes time to click through every time when creating a new profile. This export wouldn't contain any personal data, hence no need for security measures.

Thank you in advance.