Unsure how to handle "common" things and best practices with graphene.

Gklrtops

Dear people,
a decade ago I worked in IT and have been reading stuff here and there, but to be completely honest, I don't understand everything when trying to read through the Graphene features and usage section. I'm hoping to get some help here, but there are probably questions that are answered elsewhere.

The University where I study uses all MS365 Apps. So even when I would swap my Mailclient for Fairmail or Thunderbird, I would get prompted to login into my university account and forwared via Sharepoint. I don't know if that defeats the purpose entirely or how I should handle all the university stuff, since I really would like to finally organize my daily life with a as private as (somewhat comfortably) possible.
Should I create a separate Profile just for that?
How to handle Updates with Multiple stores? Installed are:
1. GrapheneOS Appstore
2. Accrescent
3. F-Droid
4. Droid-ify
5. Obtainium
6. Autora Store
  I get, that they all have different ways to get their APK's and update files, I'm trying to let them update with trustability like listed from 1-6. But some stores have updates days before, how do you handle tht ideally?
Should I be scared to ever let a datahungry app get installed on my phone, because then everything is done and dusted? Or can I use those apps with restricted access until I manage to find a porper solution? For Example WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, Discord, Instagram and so on?
I know that Matrix is a workaround for this, but at the moment, 98% of my social like is based on those apps, privacy concerned people shouldn't use. I can theoretically use my old xiaomi for this, but that are the same evil apps on a phone thats even less privte.
Is Spotify fine to use?
How to handly youtube ideally?
I use Obsidian.md for my daily organisation and studies. An american company, so the Cloud Act could makes the cloudservice for Obsidian Sync accessable - are these things to worry about?
Do I have to be careful when logging into an account with my as private as possible windows and then via protonpass through my graphene phone? I'm using mostly VPNs on Win and on graphene AlwaysOn, but are these tiny things also risks?
Having use gmail for a decade, I'm slowly making the shift to proton stuff. When creating aliases and switching a mail, you get a mail to the old (google)address with something like: Please confirm that "xxxxx@passmail.blah" is your new mail address. Theoretically leaving fingerprints, even when changing that. Where are all the small tiny things I have to be cautious? When is the time, I'm way to paranoid?

Those are loads of questions and i probably have a dozen more. I'm not Edward Snowden or someone endagered, I'm just a rando that doesn't want big companies to access every part of my life and moetize this against my will. I'm just curious what the best practises are before I may contaminate my device.

horde

Gklrtops you don't need F-Droid if you are using Droidify

nologo

A seperate profile for your university persona makes perfect sense.
Why so many app stores?
Hard one, largely a matter of threat model and personal choice. I would personally never install anything by Meta, I hate what they have been doing to users and society. You should also be aware that multiple Meta apps within one user profile may share (your) data with each other.
For messaging I use the Signal fork Molly. (My sister in law still does not like I no longer use WhatsApp. Choices have consequences. But Google and Meta won't stop doing what they're doing if we keep on using their apps and services.)
In what sense? I choose not to use Spotify, they hosted a victory party for Trump including right wing podcasters and other fascists, I don't want to support those people in any way. But again: personal choice.
People on this forum tend to use alternatives with weird names like Pipepipe or something. I can't help you, I'm not interested in amateur movies and never watch video on a phone screen. YouTube is owned by Google, by the way.
I avoid American based cloud services, I personally do care about under what legislation my data are saved. (I am not an American citizen, you probably already guessed this because of my wonky English.)
I don't understand this question.
You're not overly paranoid if you worry about data hoarding by companies like Google, Meta, or Spotify. Those companies make their money by hoarding as much personal data as possible in all possible legal, quasi-legal and probably often illegal ways. Not using their apps at all is better than trying to find ways to use them in a 'less harmful' way.

Gklrtops

nologo Thanks for taking time to answer every specifiy question :)

Why so many app stores?

Well, I thought I'd start with the more trusted appstores and the risikier they get, the more apps they seem to offer.
For example, I don't really enjoy the GrapheneOS Camera. There is Open Camera which I am currently trying, but I'm thinking about getting the Pixel Camera from Aurora, if I find a way to operate it securely and without network permission.

I avoid American based cloud services

You're right, I should move away from that and use a more complicated, but out of US cloud service in the future.

As with that and all your good points regarding Meta apps, I caught myself again for going the lazy way again. Thanks for reminding me, that all this also has a political purpose. Ironically, this is the reasoning I myself use to argue with friends to make them do the switch. I operate in a left bubble, studing also social stuff. But those people are the most noch techy people on the planet, which makes it kinda hard to get the daily life away from meta. Everything and its mother is organized in a WhatsApp group.

I don't understand this question.

Sorry for my bad wording By that I mean, if I for example create and account on my GrapheneOS. But later on, I login to that account from my Microsoft Laptop. Even if I use VPN on both, could this behaviour of mine be spreading fingerprints due to using Microsoft stuff?

You're not overly paranoid if you worry about data hoarding by companies like Google, Meta, or Spotify. Those companies make their money by hoarding as much personal data as possible in all possible legal, quasi-legal and probably often illegal ways. Not using their apps at all is better than trying to find ways to use them in a 'less harmful' way.

There are some hurdles now I need to overcome. There are Banking, Insurance and lots of other apps that are used for primarily communication and proof uploads. I need to find out, wheter they are available outside of Google Playstore or if I need to use Aurora for that.
But generally speaking, if I need to install those apps, let it be Insurance, Banking or in the worst case Meta Apps if I'm weak and can't resist doomscrolling memes: What would be the best way to do this (like containers, separate profiles, VPN ofc. and so on) and what are the dangers I set myself up tp?

Thanks again for all your help, I really appreciate that <3

dhhdjbd

nologo I choose not to use Spotify, they hosted a victory party for Trump including right wing podcasters and other fascists, I don't want to support those people in any way.

What? is this true?

what alternative did you choose

nologo

Gklrtops There are Banking, Insurance and lots of other apps that are used for primarily communication and proof uploads. I need to find out, wheter they are available outside of Google Playstore or if I need to use Aurora for that.

First question would be if those apps work on GrapheneOS at all. Some banking apps don't, but lots of them do (sometimes as is, sometimes after changing some GOS settings fot the app).

Second question would then be: does the app work without Google Play Services? If not, then you need to install sandboxed Google Play Services (and Play Store). Some users create a different profile or use private space specifically for apps which require Google Play. I think this makes sense.

Third question would be: install from Google Play Store or from Aurora? The GOS team advise against using Aurora for security reasons, but if your main focus is staying away from using a Google account (which is a stance I understand) using Aurora makes sense.

Gklrtops What would be the best way to do this (like containers, separate profiles, VPN ofc. and so on) and what are the dangers I set myself up tp?

This is a very difficult question, because there is not one 'best way' for all users, and a lot depends on what you consider to be 'dangers'. Seperate profiles are particularly useful if you want seperate between different 'user personas', for example a seperate profile (or private space) for school apps or one for work apps. Profiles are also often used to make sure apps are seperated from each other, for instance Google apps versus non Google apps. Or for example (for Meta users) WhatsApp in a seperate profile from the profile with Facebook, to make sure those apps don't interchange data (which may happen if they're in the same profile, it is likely Meta's apps are built to do this). It is important to note that using multiple profiles can have quite a negative impact on usability and convenience, for this reason it is often advised to start out with a simple set-up.

edit: forgot to add the link to the banking app compatibiliy guide: https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/

Gklrtops

nologo

I've read the areticles you've sent me and thought and tried out a little :)
Regarding the banking apps, theoretically mine should work. But one paid finance-manger app doesn't work, aurora sais, it can't be installed on my phone so I'm going to try with sandboxen google play.

Third question would be: install from Google Play Store or from Aurora? The GOS team advise against using Aurora for security reasons, but if your main focus is staying away from using a Google account (which is a stance I understand) using Aurora makes sense.

Thats interesing, I was seeing 1-2 posts where Aurora was recommended, but that was probably outside this forum and somewhere on a blog/reddit. Guess I'll stick to this forum regarding most advice :)

This is a very difficult question, because there is not one 'best way' for all users, and a lot depends on what you consider to be 'dangers'. Seperate profiles are particularly useful if you want seperate between different 'user personas', for example a seperate profile (or private space) for school apps or one for work apps. Profiles are also often used to make sure apps are seperated from each other, for instance Google apps versus non Google apps. Or for example (for Meta users) WhatsApp in a seperate profile from the profile with Facebook, to make sure those apps don't interchange data (which may happen if they're in the same profile, it is likely Meta's apps are built to do this). It is important to note that using multiple profiles can have quite a negative impact on usability and convenience, for this reason it is often advised to start out with a simple set-up.

I'm quite intereseted in the "use owner as app pusher" approach. That sounds quite interesing and easy to manage if i need to restart or delete a profile. Ofc. I nearly completely set up my owner profile for daily use with authenticators, password managers and so on just to do it all again :D
But there are some questions regarding that, maybe you can help me again (I really really appreicate the time you took helping me already!).

You've said that meta apps probalby interchange data, but if I understand graphene correctly, it runs every app sandboxed. How can they interchange data then? I'm using a different profile for any meta app anyways, but just to understand this on a technical level.
When using Owner as app pusher, there is also the need for google play that will get pushed to neccessary profiles. Is this in any form a security issue or is sandboxed google play a relatively normal thing to do on graphene?
If installing google play for each profile is more secure but slightly less comfy, I dont' mind going the extra step.
If setting up my owner as app pusher, should I reset my phone? There is loads of data on my owner profile, the whole proton stuff. The questions regards that other apps that i install without setting them up may collect some data. Or can I do this and then step by step remove accounts from my "main" apps to set it up more comfortably?

Regarding your input about spotify, meta and bigtech Apps: I'm trying to switch, but for me personally found out I need to do it slowly. Throwing myself head first and do everything at once just resulted in me carrying two phones and using it more than I probably would if I would switch them to graphene. I like the delay it takes to switch to those evil profiles and that makes me halt for a second and then don't do it. Guess I'll go the slow and steady way, but I won't forget your words :)

nologo

And I also wanted to add this link on using profiles (but cannot edit my post anymore): https://seprand.github.io/articles/best-user-profile-setup/

Novalissoide

Gklrtops meta apps probalby interchange data, but if I understand graphene correctly, it runs every app sandboxed. How can they interchange data then?

Android itself runs all apps sandboxed. GrapheneOS just won't let Google and any other agent transgress this sandboxing model, this is different than the super privileged position of Google in most other OS:es.
Google, Meta and others apps might communicate with each other outside of your device.

Johnnyloans

Gklrtops How can they interchange data then? I'm using a different profile for any meta app anyways, but just to understand this on a technical level.

Full sandbox is akin to an isolated VM. Apps, however, receive permissions to the outside like the microphone, internet, gps, or... IPC (similar to linux's dbus) for apps to communicate with each other.

2/3 Not sure what your threat model is (who are your potential predators in essence). But the owner profile for most everything and private space for suspect apps is a good approach for the vast majority of people. Private space first "boots up" after you type in the pin code for private space. You may need to open/initialize certain apps momentarily to ensure prompt notifications. I put my meta apps in here.

PS is coded as a separate profile. Profiles offer limited advantages--namely, the ability to delete the profile quickly if you're a journalist, a hunted person, or something. I think Novalissoide said elsewhere that they use many apps in PS with google play services disabled and the apps are happy to run still.

Gklrtops

Novalissoide

Thanks for the clarification :)

I guess there will always be a way to connect the dots outside of my phone, just because of the interaction with other people and being safed in others contact stores.

Something I forgot to say:
Some tickets, also for my university only work with google or apple wallet. Although there are some that offer .pkpass files, this won't work for everything. Do you have an Idea if there is a good workaround?

Johnnyloans

Gklrtops
Apps have to be programmed specifically to talk to each other and utilize the data received in an affective matter.

As you may already know, programs aren't malleable like humans and just say "you got any gossip?" .... "Thanks, I'll act accordingly after receiving this new info."

Many apps are programmed to communicate with play services and could possibly be sending whatever.

Gklrtops

Johnnyloans

The PS is a good idea, but when I need more that one different persona, I think I need to go back to using different profiles. Thats why the app pusher approach seems to me like the best idea - but again, I'm a noob :D

My threat model is low, I'm no journalist, it's just that if I try to set it up, might as well go all the way.

Another thing I forogt:
I mostly use vanadium, but some sites still spill out ads. I used firefox and firefox mobile before, but now I read everywhere that firefox mobile is not as secure/good as the desktop version. Could you recommend a fork or alternative I can use with uBlock?

Novalissoide

Johnnyloans use many apps in PS with google play services disabled and the apps are happy to run still

Yes. I registered my first ever Google account two months ago, and only to be capable of proper signing hash-extraction for checking users troubling apps. All my banking, payment, Digital ID, medical, work-related, collaborating stuff was done before having the account. I had Sandboxed Google Play Services+Store installed, but not logged in, and fully disabled. Now I just enable these twice daily to get updates and installs, then re-disable them. Takes about one minute.🫡

Johnnyloans

Gklrtops

In the app store install accrescent. Inside there, install iron fox and use ublock origin.

If you use firefox for news websites, university URLs, youtube, github, etc you aren't going to be hacked by Bill Gates at microslop.

We are on a privacy/security forum which attracts perfectionists or paranoia. I've read people saying that every desktop OS will be hacked in a matter of hours, encrypted drives are extremely easy to crack, or fdroid is dangerous because it's a single point of failure. Their heads would explode if they found out that: google, GOS, steam, the garbage truck to takeaway the bins are all single points of failure not to be trusted.

I wrote this on getting hacked:

Zero days are extremely valuable and have a lifespan. Yes, viruses can spread indiscriminately to everything it sees; however, the virus will be studied and patched with haste--the software will be secure from it. Likely a waste of the exploit. Conversely, very few people in the word have the knowledge and resources to target 1 person or organization. We aren't the target.
About all exploits deployed today are used to change the world. Not to steal the nudes of old Johnny Loans Esquire.

GOS has several layers of security. There is a tiny chance a website will have 4 exploits for the phone.
Chrome is better than firefox for security but this isn't the wild west of 30 years ago in terms of trusting everything and getting malware all of the time.

Vanadium and most chromium based browsers have had their ad blocking kneecapped by google, which controls Chrome/Chromium.

personally, I use vanadium on the phone and firefox on desktop. I use ironfox some times for taking cleaner screenshots with ublock origin.

Novalissoide

Gklrtops alternative I can use with uBlock

Vanadium is planned to get more filtering. But since it is much more secure than any Firefox, you should stick to Vanadium and use RethinkDNS
https://github.com/celzero/rethink-app/releases

EverettHitch

Just because apps run sandboxed (including Play services) it doesn't mean they don't collect information on you, with or without Play services, many peeps get this wrong.

dhhdjbd

not directly related, but i only recently figured that out

cloudflare and similar are, as far as i understand it, essentially a middle man and can see all decrypted traffic between you and the website.

this might be something one should keep in mind

(i have not yet figured out if this changes for websites that are like super big etc.)

EverettHitch

dhhdjbd source? We don't go by gut feeling here

dhhdjbd

EverettHitch

https://serverfault.com/questions/662946/does-cloudflare-know-the-decrypted-content-when-using-a-https-connection

This for example

and also, if you connect to a server, for cloudflare to put the bot notice in between, essentially putting themself in the middle,
they kinda need to hold the certificates/ keys as far as i understand it

otherwise they could not interrupt the connection

or here more recent https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/274171/why-cant-we-encrypt-twice-instead-of-having-cloudflare-mitm-half-the-internet