Good E2EE messengers besides Signal?

Linux

What messenger can you recommend to use on Android and Linux?

I already use Signal but I also want something that doesn't need a phone number and easily allow to create multiple accounts for different purposes.
I want to replace Mail and Discord with it as far as possible, so it should have the msot important features that they are providing features.

23Sha-ger

Threema, Session.

Linux want to replace Mail

Good luck with that. Let us know when you make 99.99%
of people ditch traditional email.

Emmy

Linux [matrix] works, too

nandohyphen1

Linux XMPP

KCne

Linux
I find this comparison table to be factual and helpful:
https://eylenburg.github.io/im_comparison.htm

Below, I’ve linked some critiques to instant messengers others have listed on this thread. It doesn’t mean I think all those messengers are completely useless, but I believe highlighting their limitations is useful to make an informed decision. Also, I would consider that fact that telling everyone you email and send discord messages to, to switch to a certain platform, will likely cause many people to be alienated. No matter how high quality a messenger is, you may want to consider the impact they could have on the quality of your relationships.

23Sha-ger Session

https://soatok.blog/2025/01/20/session-round-2/

I stand by what I said previously: Don’t Use Session.
The fact that they forked Signal and deliberately moved forward secrecy from the protocol was already sufficient reason to never trust it.
What they replaced forward secrecy with does not pass muster for secure cryptographic software.

23Sha-ger Threema

https://soatok.blog/2021/11/05/threema-three-strikes-youre-out/

Most of what I shared here isn’t a game over vulnerability, provided you aren’t using Threema for group messaging, but my findings certainly debunk the claims made by Threema’s marketing copy.
If you are using Threema for group messaging–and especially for sharing files–you should be aware of the Invisible Salamanders attack discussed above.
When in doubt, just use Signal. It’s free, open source, private, and secure.

Eirikr70 xmpp

https://soatok.blog/2024/08/04/against-xmppomemo/

As things stand today, I cannot recommend anyone use XMPP + OMEMO.
From the lack of a mechanism to keep implementations up-to-date with protocol versions, to a lack of clear rationale for protocol design decisions, to ecosystem issues with both the app availability and their third-party open source dependencies, to the most popular app (Conversations) being an absolute mess of complications, XMPP+OMEMO hasn’t earned my trust.

Emmy [matrix]

https://soatok.blog/2024/08/14/security-issues-in-matrixs-olm-library/

Don’t use Matrix.
I had incorrectly assumed ignorance, when it was in fact negligence.
There’s no reasonable world in which anyone should trust the developers of cryptographic software (i.e., libolm) that deliberately ships with side-channels for years, knowing they’re
present, and never bother to fix them.

grapheine Simplex

I personally believe that SimpleX has made meaningful contributions in the instant messenger field! Still, I don’t consider them perfect. For example:

https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/simplex-vs-cwtch-who-is-right/19256/112

Linux

23Sha-ger Threema, Session.

schweizer Threema is doing what you require. It runs without google and there is a open source version available on their server so you don't need playstore or f-droid.

Isn't Threema closed source, or only their backend?
It also seams like they don't have a independent Linux app, only a companion for the mobile, but I want an app that can work independently.

23Sha-ger Linux want to replace Mail

Good luck with that. Let us know when you make 99.99%
of people ditch traditional email.

I want something that can be used as a replacement for mail.
It seems like Matrix is the closest to this because I see some people linking their Matrix address directly under their mail address in their profile on sites like Github.

Eirikr70

If you want something with a limited number of persons (that is, without the network effect), you can set up xmpp accounts with for instance Conversations on Android and Movim on Linux, on servers you might choose.

Linux

Emmy Linux [matrix] works, too

I find Matrix very promising but I didn't find a satisfying Linux client.
The Element client and also Cinny have permission that I am unwilling to accept, especially "Can request data from none portal services and gain additional permissions"

Eirikr70 If you want something with a limited number of persons (that is, without the network effect), you can set up xmpp accounts with for instance Conversations on Android and Movim on Linux, on servers you might choose.

What is the difference between XMPP and Matrix?
I heard that XMPP doesn't have E2EE by default

schweizer

Threema is doing what you require. It runs without google and there is a open source version available on their server so you don't need playstore or f-droid.

Edit: I see your requirement for different profiles. Threema is available as Threema work so you can have two profiles on the same user account but not more. But you can run another two instances in your private space.

Linux

schweizer Threema is doing what you require. It runs without google and there is a open source version available on their server so you don't need playstore or f-droid.

Is Threema doing something better enough to justify the additional effort to convince people to pay for it?
I have no problem paying for myself, but the problem would be convincing others

Eumenia I don't know why but for some reason many messenger for Linux have this permission. Not only Matrix clients but also Session. Seems like only SimpleX avoids this

Yeah, they always include permissions that they should't have

grapheine

Simplex

Linux

KCne I would consider that fact that telling everyone you email and send discord messages to, to switch to a certain platform, will likely cause many people to be alienated. No matter how high quality a messenger is, you may want to consider the impact they could have on the quality of your relationships.

I want to adjust my statement above (unfortunately I can't eddit it):
I want something that at least technically can be used for similar purposes, like receiving messages from strangers and organizing communities.

KCne 23Sha-ger Session

https://soatok.blog/2025/01/20/session-round-2/

I stand by what I said previously: Don’t Use Session.
The fact that they forked Signal and deliberately moved forward secrecy from the protocol was already sufficient reason to never trust it.
What they replaced forward secrecy with does not pass muster for secure cryptographic software.

23Sha-ger Threema

https://soatok.blog/2021/11/05/threema-three-strikes-youre-out/

Most of what I shared here isn’t a game over vulnerability, provided you aren’t using Threema for group messaging, but my findings certainly debunk the claims made by Threema’s marketing copy.
If you are using Threema for group messaging–and especially for sharing files–you should be aware of the Invisible Salamanders attack discussed above.
When in doubt, just use Signal. It’s free, open source, private, and secure.

Eirikr70 xmpp

https://soatok.blog/2024/08/04/against-xmppomemo/
As things stand today, I cannot recommend anyone use XMPP + OMEMO.
From the lack of a mechanism to keep implementations up-to-date with protocol versions, to a lack of clear rationale for protocol design decisions, to ecosystem issues with both the app availability and their third-party open source dependencies, to the most popular app (Conversations) being an absolute mess of complications, XMPP+OMEMO hasn’t earned my trust.

Emmy [matrix]

https://soatok.blog/2024/08/14/security-issues-in-matrixs-olm-library/

Don’t use Matrix.
I had incorrectly assumed ignorance, when it was in fact negligence.
There’s no reasonable world in which anyone should trust the developers of cryptographic software (i.e., libolm) that deliberately ships with side-channels for years, knowing they’re
present, and never bother to fix them.

grapheine Simplex

I personally believe that SimpleX has made meaningful contributions in the instant messenger field! Still, I don’t consider them perfect. For example:

https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/simplex-vs-cwtch-who-is-right/19256/112

So would you recommend SimpleX?

IcyScroll I'll try to help, let me know if you need anything else.

Under the hood SimpleX Chat is complex indeed, however besides the flatpak not having access to all user files by default, I wouldn't say it's hard to get started. Sure, it's not as easy as Signal (contact discovery) but that's mainly because it's just different. Every contact needs to be given an address in order to connect. Address can be profile-wide (like Signal QR code) or single-use: one for every connection you want to have. It's up to users to distribute their addresses, for now. When it comes to e-mail, SimpleX address can be added as part of signature to let your contacts know there's another way to contact you if needed.

I find SimpleX Chat much easier to use than for example XMPP. In my opinion it's a great tool to have regardless of whether people around use it at this time. In the meantime, an empty SimpleX profile can be treated just like a mailbox :)

I like many things about Simple
But since they don't have any contact discovery methods two question is particulary important for me

What happens to an existing contact/connection if the smp server we have made our connection over goes offline?
ould it be possible in the future to create server independent long term SimpleX links?

IcyScroll

Linux SimpleX Chat may be what you're looking for. It doesn't require a phone number or any other PII. You can have as many user profiles in as many portable databases as you wish. It's founder plans on eventually integrating e-mail, which means e-mail UX is going to be there too. It has a verified flatpak as well.

Having said that, SimpleX Chat is not there yet if you cannot accept some drawbacks that come with its early development stage. It's definitely useful but shouldn't be compared to much older messaging services yet. They are building a communication network from scratch, after all.

schweizer

IcyScroll SimpleX Chat may be what you're looking for

In those comparison tables like Eylenburg SimpleX looks as if it was the perfect messenger. But the best messenger is only beneficial if your communication partners use it as well. I never met someone who was trying to chat with me through SimpleX. Their userbase is negligible. The few that use it can't be found because there is no contact finder.

So @Linux should start with an analysis of his/her communication partners. What do they already have installed and how high is the percentage that would install a new messenger just for you?

That might lead to very different results than looking just at the comparison table. Maybe use email a little longer :-)

Blastoidea

IcyScroll
Maybe I’m just slow, but I found their literature and setup to be a real challenge.

Linux

I found a big table comparing all the messengers:
https://www.messenger-matrix.de/messenger-matrix-en.html

DeletedUser499

Try Briar, as many accounts as you like. Use briar mailbox on another device to pick up messages when your not on line. Install briar send one message and delete the account, nobody is the wiser, try that with signal and its insistence on a phone number as a starter for ten at trying to trace you..

mmmm

DeletedUser499 briar is great but it's hardly cross platform and not very many people use it

02673853

Linux I already use Signal but I also want something that doesn't need a phone number and easily allow to create multiple accounts for different purposes.

I think SimpleX is one of the best.
Alternatively Matrix (Element)

Linux I want to replace Mail and Discord with it as far as possible, so it should have the msot important features that they are providing features.

For Discord like experience Matrix

chinook

mmmm also https://docs.cwtch.im/ received in 2024 a provisional/careful 'maybe'.

For the sake of expedience, today, Signal is a “yes” and Cwtch is a hopeful “maybe”.

DeletedUser499

mmmm
Briar fulfilled two of the three options the OP was looking for. It was a fair shout.
Yes not many people use it, that's its strength, it may well get overlooked when it counts to be overlooked, etc...

IcyScroll

Blastoidea Maybe I’m just slow, but I found their literature and setup to be a real challenge.

I'll try to help, let me know if you need anything else.

Under the hood SimpleX Chat is complex indeed, however besides the flatpak not having access to all user files by default, I wouldn't say it's hard to get started. Sure, it's not as easy as Signal (contact discovery) but that's mainly because it's just different. Every contact needs to be given an address in order to connect. Address can be profile-wide (like Signal QR code) or single-use: one for every connection you want to have. It's up to users to distribute their addresses, for now. When it comes to e-mail, SimpleX address can be added as part of signature to let your contacts know there's another way to contact you if needed.

I find SimpleX Chat much easier to use than for example XMPP. In my opinion it's a great tool to have regardless of whether people around use it at this time. In the meantime, an empty SimpleX profile can be treated just like a mailbox :)

Eirikr70

Linux What is the difference between XMPP and Matrix?
I heard that XMPP doesn't have E2EE by default

It has. It uses a specific protocol called OMEMO. The difference with Matrix as a user is rather tenuous, but as an administrator I find it much easier to maintain.

Eumenia

Linux find Matrix very promising but I didn't find a satisfying Linux client.
The Element client and also Cinny have permission that I am unwilling to accept, especially "Can request data from none portal services and gain additional permissions"

I don't know why but for some reason many messenger for Linux have this permission. Not only Matrix clients but also Session. Seems like only SimpleX avoids this

paprikatongue

The real challenge is finding a signal alternative that other people will use, haha. I use Molly, it's a nice signal fork but you do need a phone number. Simplex and session are phone number free alternatives. Also use Jabber/XMPP. There's a helpful tutorial on the dark net bible for setting up XMPP with OMEMO encryption.

You gotta meet people where they're at. So unfortunately, that means having a lot of different communication channels sometimes, not just one perfect alternative

02673853

paprikatongue The real challenge is finding a signal alternative that other people will use, haha. I use Molly, it's a nice signal fork but you do need a phone number. Simplex and session are phone number free alternatives. Also use Jabber/XMPP. There's a helpful tutorial on the dark net bible for setting up XMPP with OMEMO encryption.

You gotta meet people where they're at. So unfortunately, that means having a lot of different communication channels sometimes, not just one perfect alternative

I don't see any difference between different messengers in terms of onboarding people.
Maybe SimpleX is a littly bit easier because they don't need to create an account.