Google apps on GrapheneOS vs ios

MilaOlaf

Hi guys,

I have just installed GrapheneOS on my first Android phone in a long time (Pixel 8 pro). The reason I stayed away from Android and am an avid ios/osx user is the massive amounts of data that is hoarded and sold by Google. I know that Apple also uses my data but stock ios vs stock Android is a no brainer for me.

However I do use a number of Google apps for convenience or work that I want to keep on using so my question is the following: if I 'have' to use Google apps (Maps, YouTube, Authenticator to name a few), which os protects me the most and shares the least amount of data. Graphone or ios?

I have tried looking for the answer as to not double post but could not find anything this specific...

Thanks!

Dumdum

MilaOlaf
As far as I'm aware, the "Scopes" on GrapheneOS is superior to Apple's, which makes GrapheneOS the "no brainer".

DirtyDan

MilaOlaf you can use multiple profiles or private space to isolate the Google apps from your other apps.

You can also access several Google "apps" as progressive web apps, limiting their scope to the browser rather than the whole profile. Google Maps works well this way minus navigation and timeline. Though, I just keep the full version installed on a separate profile that I use with Android Auto. Others that work well as PWAs or regular webpages are Google Voice, Google photos, Google Messages (web), Find My Device, Google News, Google Contacts, Google Keep.

Similarly, you can use different clients to access some Google services instead of installing the official Google one. For example, thunderbird as an email client instead of Gmail, Grayjay/NewPipe for YouTube, RiMusic instead of YouTube Music, Aurora Store instead of Play Store, etc

You can also use alternative apps. For example, lots of authenticator apps such as Aegis, Ente, Bitwarden, keepassdx. Organic maps/Magic earth instead of Google maps. Futo Keyboard instead of Gboard. Proton Mail/Tuta instead of Gmail. Catima instead of Google Wallet (for rewards cards), etc etc

The hardest Google app to isolate I've found so far is Google messages. If you want RCS support though, it's required. But so far, I can't get it to work on a Non-Owner profile and Google messages and play services require hefty permissions in order for RCS to work.

N1b

MilaOlaf the answers here go into technical details, but I found that this video of The Hated One told me everything I need to know regarding iOS vs GrapheneOS in less than 20m. Another with more focus on specifics is this recent video of his.

The short answer to your question: On GrapheneOS, Google won't get anything you don't give them, and you're able to fully lock out both Google and Apple from your life. You're in full control, while on iOS you're limited as to what Apple can do and what app developers like Google can see.

Last but not least: It's mostly up to you, your threat model and your habits. GrapheneOS is great by default (much better than iOS), but in the end it's a professional tool for you to use as you please. If you choose to share your identity, location, sensors, microphone etc. with Google, they will use all the information you give them. On GrapheneOS you have agency over such data though, which is impossible on iOS.

N1b

I'm sorry but this is derailing the threat. My intention was never to make this a discussion on Google vs Apple (they both are great and suck at the same time).

OP asked this:

MilaOlaf which os protects me the most and shares the least amount of data. Graphone or ios?

In my opinion the obvious answer is GOS if you single out security and privacy. But if convenience or eco system play bigger roles (OP mentioned using macOS too), it's not as simple.

MilaOlaf

Dumdum

I thought that scopes only apply to storage and contacts and not to collected and sent data.... Be aware that I am in no way hindered by any knowledge, just a newbie heren...

traveller

There's a weird behaviour on iOS: whenever I log into, say, Youtube.app (downloaded from the App Store), I get automatically logged into Google Earth, Google Mail etc (i.e. all of the Google apps immediately see that I have this login). I don't understand this behaviour - it basically links everything google-related on your iOS device to a single account (well, google apps themselves allow to choose whether to use this login or use a different one, but to me the expected behaviour is that's the OS that should ask whether to share or not existing login with the apps, and the apps shouldn't have access to all of the other logins on the device). I feel like once you login to any google service once, your iOS device gets immediately fingerprinted and tied to your google account for the rest of its existence.

What is worse - after entering google account in youtube.app, I get automatically logged into this Google account in Safari! Why?? Considering literally every web page on the internet is "poisoned" with google-identifying scripts, like google analytics, your google account automatically starts being your personal google spy whatever webpage you visit on your iOS device.

I suppose Google and Apple have some kind of mutually beneficial agreement to allow this kind of tracking, I don't understand why else would they do it like that.

My expectation is that each app is supposed to be a separate isolated entity, and especially the browser should stay out of the user apps logins.

This is a major downside of the iOS for me comparing to a multi-profile GrapheneOS setup. Maybe there's something I just didn't understand - I would be glad if someone explained if so.

treenutz68

traveller

I'm fairly certain this same thing happens on GrapheneOS/Android, but it is even worse. Because when you log into a google app on android/graphene, it logs you in at the 'system' level (I am perhaps not using the correct words, just how I see it). You can see the google account under your 'accounts' setting in grapheneos when you've logged into gmail or google voice for example and it feels like that account is systemwide.

I guess you could isolate each google app via its own separate profile, but I find profiles too cumbersome to work with on a daily basis.

Laurent

The data is end-to-end encrypted at Apple if you activate this setting, but some metadata is encrypted by Apple in a standard way (Apple will have the keys to decrypt this data). Apple and Google APIs can be used to analyze the network and evaluate profiling, but your data cannot be read. You're talking about authenticator, I guess you're talking about the password manager? The one that is integrated by Apple is end-to-end encrypted by default and can be used offline. It is very well done. Besides, on iOS you don't have to use iCloud if you want to stay offline. Knowing that you can also save the entire content of your iPhone and what you have in your applications, on computer with the "Apple device" application. Backup that is offline and password protected. On GrapheneOS you will still need some knowledge although the installation is simple, the safest is to have the playstore, the backup system is not bad, the gboard keyboard is in my humble opinion above the iPhone keyboard, more responsive. Everything is a matter of compromise, you are the only one who knows which phone to buy. But I remember that when I installed GrapheneOS for the first time I really felt safe and with excellent privacy.

DirtyDan

treenutz68 yes. Plus there are app communications where apps can bypass the sandbox and communicate with each other if they both agree to do so. Naturally, Google made it so Google apps can communicate with other Google apps.

Only way around this is to use different profiles. GrapheneOS devs have teased an app communication scopes feature, but there's no timeline for when/if this feature will be made available.

GrapheneOS

treenutz68 This is misinformation.

MilaOlaf

So in short the answer is that I can just stay at Apple since the privacy gains with Graphene is negligible?

DeletedUser127

MilaOlaf no, the exact opposite. GrapheneOS provides many features and controls you don't get in stock environment and you can only benefit from its use security and privacy-wise even when using sandboxed Google Play.

https://grapheneos.org/features

AlanZ

MilaOlaf

So in short the answer is that I can just stay at Apple since the privacy gains with Graphene is negligible?

No, as a long time Apple “power” user, I can attest to the fact that even with ADP turned on, or iCloud completely disabled, the privacy gains of GrapheneOS over iOS are tremendous. There is just no way around that fact. Apple might be nice in many other ways, but it is nowhere near as private as GOS. Not even in the same universe. Compared to everything else that I have tried, I would say it is a distant second.
Also, again, just my opinion, but Apple keeps implementing highly questionable “features” that are antithetical to a user’s privacy. Case in point - Enhanced Visual Search. And another one - Help Apple Improve Search. Both were imposed surreptitiously, which only made matters worse.
The amount of analysis that goes on in the Photos app is scandalous, even if we take at face value that it is all on device. It cannot be turned off.

Locart

N1b « with Google, they will use all the information you give them. On GrapheneOS you have agency over such data though, which is impossible on iOS. »

You can choose who you send your data to on iOS, you also have practically the same catalog of open source applications on the app store. You also have a button to disable the application network, you have a button to tell an application which photo it can have access to and the same for contacts. The explanation is a little more complicated than saying: one is private and the other is not... it is neither white nor black you should calculate the compromises between GrapheneOS or iOS. In any case, both are advised by the developers, from the fact that I have read.

AlphaElwedritsch

N1b with Google, they will use all the information you give them.

For what? What are they doing with it? Against me?
Unfortunately, I have not yet found a source with information on how exactly the data is used (against you).
Do you have a reliable source with a list?

MilaOlaf

Thanks guys, I'll go give it a serious try. Bit shame I have to start taking my bank/credit cards with me again since our providers rely on Google Wallet but if that is the biggest problem I'll survive....

N1b

MilaOlaf Since you already need to change your payment habits, how about trying to get used to pay with cash right away? It's a big privacy benefit if it fits your threat model and situation. Your bank will only know when you pulled money and how much. Vendors won't know anything about you. With card payments, your bank knows about all your payments (when you pay how much to whom) and the vendor knows some details of your bank and card.

MilaOlaf

N1b

Paying with cash is almost not an option here in The Netherlands anymore. Last year more than 80% of the payments were done with card/nfc and more and more businesses are refusing cash payments. For example; our local grocery store just removed all but one of their options to pay with cash but we now have 12 scan and pay booths. You can imagine the line in the cash isle...

traveller

N1b what kind of details does a vendor know when a card payment is made?
I know that when you do "bank transfers" to a phone number, the recipient knows your name/surname, home address, etc. Is it similar for POS terminal payments?

N1b

MilaOlaf Paying with cash is almost not an option here in The Netherlands anymore.

That's a shame. Since you require digital payment: Google Pay is accessible through a smartwatch even when using GOS. Some banks also have their own NFC implementation and work on GOS. I have no details though on which smartwatch/bank to use, but there are some threads discussing it on this forum.

GOS21606

MilaOlaf

Yes you can but Is a mindset to do so except of course for the stores with only scan and pay.
Just like payments with bankcards why should you make payments with your phone there is nothing wrong to bring a card with you or to pay cash?

If you want privacy use your phone as little as possible. (also a mindset)

N1b

Locart my wording was poor than.

What I meant to say was that on iOS you have little agency over what data you send to Apple. Now compare this to the absolute agency over what data you send to Google you have on GOS. It's a better system for privacy (aka control over your data).

iOS is a very secure system with a huge privacy ad campaign that does close to nothing for your actual privacy when it comes to Apple themselves. It's a closed source system and pretty much unusable without sharing lots of data with Apple (watch the videos I linked for details).

There are many good reasons to use iOS (security, design, eco system, convenience etc.), but if you want to keep your data away from big tech (such as Apple), it's not a good option.

Locart You can choose who you send your data to on iOS

You can not, even the permission system for third party apps is subpar compared to GOS.

Locart you also have practically the same catalog of open source applications

This is not true, especially for privacy friendly applications that go against the ToU from Apple/Google. Privacy friendly YouTube clients (e.g. Newpipe, Clipious, LibreTube) are a great example.

Locart The explanation is a little more complicated than saying: one is private and the other is not... it is neither white nor black

Agreed, which is why I always encourage threat modeling and advise against best practice approaches. You'll also have to define what privacy means for you first. Maybe you're okay with the objective drawbacks of iOS but really want the objective advantages. If we generally define privacy as "agency over your data", GOS will generally give you better tools and control, while iOS will generally patronize you more.

Locart In any case, both are advised by the developers, from the fact that I have read.

To be clear: I don't speak for the project. From what I read, iOS is praised for its security and for some specific privacy features against third parties. It also encourages higher standards given its enormous user base. I haven't seen project members recommending iOS if your threat model contains keeping your data away from big tech companies though, as Apple's data collection can't be avoided on an iPhone.

Locart

N1b Ah the famous Apple advertising campaign on privacy... well use play services on GOS then, it must be better for privacy. Bertrand Serlet talks about the conception of privacy at Apple on ORLM in podcast.

N1b

AlphaElwedritsch read their policy, they are very open about it: https://policies.google.com/privacy

But it's simple, Google is an ad company (Apple too, btw) and only liable towards their investors. They have to use every potential to make money.

I never said that this means they use the information "against" you. Making profit of your information doesn't necessarily mean harming you. It could even be beneficial for you.

Anyway, my point was that if OP values their privacy, they have to look beyond choosing best practice approaches and using GOS vs iOS alone won't likely cut it. You can invite Google in if you want and share all your data with them, winning little compared to Pixel OS.

The difference is that on GOS you have the power, the tools and the convenience to take privacy back into your own hands.

N1b

Locart all I'm doing is stating easily researchable facts. Why are you so opposed to this? Maybe I'm just too provocative with my words...

I'm not using Play Services btw. for my private profiles, not sure where you get that from. It's a great example though: On GOS you have the choice to not work with Google (it's even the default setting). Try using an iPhone without Apple services (or at least sandboxed Apple services without privileged access), it won't work.

You can choose to trust Apple. I would trust them more with my data than Google if I had to choose, but fortunately I can choose to trust neither. My philosophy is that big tech companies are not my friends. Both Apple and Google would cut my head off in a second if it that made their quarterly earnings go up.