Feature Request: Integrate proper backup & restore like NeoBackup

Johnny4939

Hey there. I've been trying to find out how to properly backup and restore on Graphene OS for a week now and sadly I noticed that its just not possible. The only way is seedvault that is not available for stock OS, so it cannot be used to migrate from stock to Graphene or vice-versa.
Furthermore a lot of apps just don't backup properly via seedvault and - even worse - seedvault may even report a successfull backup in such cases and if you try to retsore you are screwed.

I understand that for security reasons you don't want to support magisk/SU/rooting even though it is only a risk if the user is tricked to allow su for malicious code (Graphene OS could easily sign a magisked bootloader if you wanted to, so bootloader can be locked with it and OTA could still be applied), but why not add a proper, app-developer independent backup like Neo Backup to the official Roms?

Thanks

Dumdum

Johnny4939
https://grapheneos.org/features#encrypted-backups

Seedvault was created by a GrapheneOS community member for inclusion in our operating system. We plan on replacing it with a new implementation since the project has been taken over by another group of people not sharing our goals or approach. For now, this is the best available option, so we're including it to give people encrypted backup support. We've made several security fixes to work around upstream issues with the project.

but why not add a proper, app-developer independent backup like Neo Backup to the official Roms?

Reasons include those described here. Generally, standards of security and licensing are the big issues.

Comments on Seedvault can be found on these issues, I imagine there's more updated comments on social medias, but its too late for me to even consider scouring:
https://github.com/GrapheneOS/os-issue-tracker/issues/1924#issuecomment-1407794484
https://github.com/GrapheneOS/os-issue-tracker/issues/3389#issuecomment-2028438678

de0u

Johnny4939 Why not add a proper, app-developer independent backup like Neo Backup to the official Roms?

I think in this particular case AGPLv3 is a showstopper, though there may be others.

Johnny4939

Disclaimer: Please do not read this as "demanding", but rather as trying to understand:

Dumdum
This is not about "I want my favorite app", this is about providing basic functionality that cannot be achived by just installing the app manually. I don't really care whether it is Neo Backup or something else. oandbackup (MIT License!, "mother" of Neo Backup), or Swift backup (well, closed source I guess) should be fine, too. I just mentioned NeoBackup because that is the one I used before.

"GrapheneOS is focused on making meaningful improvements to privacy and security" - backup and restore is (part of) security

The "We plan on replacing it with a new implementation since the project has been taken over by another group of people not sharing our goals or approach." is written in that FAQ since May 2022!

You do such a great job in implementing dozends of additional security techniques, it just seems odd that this seems to have such a low priority. This rather simple functionality (basically: copy data to encrypted archive and back) is "coming soon" since more than 2.5 years.

Would some kind of "if apk is named xyz and signed by original autor grant required permissions for backup" an option? Like a su but the OS maintainer decides which app is allowed to and not the user? (maybe with a default-off toggle in the settings for users that dont want to use it or only occasionaly)
that way the ROM would not have to include the AGPLv3 apk of NeoBackup but still it can be used.

Thanks for reading

Open_Source_Enjoyer

Dumdum Reasons include those described here. Generally, standards of security and licensing are the big issues.

Is seedvault a security risk or how do you mean it?

Dumdum

Johnny4939 This is not about "I want my favorite app",

Never said it was. I said "reasons can be found here". It was simply a reference.

don't really care whether it is Neo Backup or something else. oandbackup (MIT License!, "mother" of Neo Backup), or Swift backup (well, closed source I guess) should be fine, too. I just mentioned NeoBackup because that is the one I used before.

Again, licensing and security standards are to be considered. Especially so in regards to security, since GOS devs have very high standards and don't really compromise very often, if at all, when implementing things (e.g. their duress PIN feature).

it just seems odd that this seems to have such a low priority.

Only team members can really say here, but personally I would imagine its simply because users can (and many users do) use alternative ways to backup data, so its not of greater urgency than many other security aspects and features being worked on.

that way the ROM

Obligatory "its not a ROM, its an OS" comment.

Johnny4939

Dumdum users can (and many users do) use alternative ways to backup data

So tell me, which one? I don't know of any compatible with Graphene besides seedvault which itself requires proper support of the app-dev for Android backup (which many lack to do).
This basically is what my FR is about in the first place.
And no, not all apps support cloud-based app-sepcific backups, even if you don't mind to use it and are fine with the hassle of migrating all the apps one-by-one.

DeletedUser43

Johnny4939 There are a lot of post of people not happy with Seedvault, and devs will prioritize it as they see fit. I need backup only for transferring to a new phone. I just accept the reality, that if the app is not could based, then I'll have to do it manually through cloud storage (Tresorit). "SMS Import/Export" app, the rest of the apps have import/export built in. 80-90% of work is to login in to everything again, and this won't be solved with backup anyway.

I totally understand, that for people avoiding cloud based apps, not having a proper backup solution is a big deal. I just wanted to give you some inside, why there is no more uproar about this.

Dumdum

Johnny4939 So tell me, which one? I don't know of any compatible with Graphene besides seedvault which itself requires proper support of the app-dev for Android backup (which many lack to do).

I never said anything about backup apps (such as NeoBackup, etc). "Alternative ways" would be apps like Syncthing and Localsend (or even regular USB transfer) to transfer files, and in-app backup features for app settings and data.

This basically is what my FR is about in the first place.

I'm aware. Still doesn't change anything I said, or the fact that this FR is not particularly useful since the team already have plans for a proper backup app. Waiting is understandably difficult sometimes, but its no reason to act as if the absence/delay of a feature is an indication that the feature hasn't been considered very little/at all, or that the team should abandon any of the criteria/standards they have just to hasten the inclusion of a feature.

not all apps support cloud-based app-sepcific backups

Ok? And they don't have to. It would just be convenient for users if they did. As long as an app has a backup function at all, then users can upload the backup to the cloud themselves. I do this with my Bitwarden/Aegis backups and Cryptomator.

even if you don't mind to use it and are fine with the hassle of migrating all the apps one-by-one.

Yes. I've never considered migration to be much of a hassle.

Johnny4939

DeletedUser43 I'll have to do it manually through cloud storage (Tresorit)

But Tresorit is just a E2E cloud storage, right? It cannot access the private storage of apps in Graphene either?

DeletedUser43 I need backup only for transferring to a new phone

What if your phone breaks/ is stolen?

Dumdum the team already have plans for a proper backup app

for 2.5 years ...

I can just say that I was very enthusiastic about Graphene OS, but If I cannot even get my (app)data in (not even talking about getting data out for backup), that is a "showstopper". I got my new pixel out of the box and the first thing I did was to flash Graphene - what a waste of time.

de0u

Johnny4939 I got my new pixel out of the box and the first thing I did was to flash Graphene - what a waste of time.

The backup situation is a concern for me as well. But the project leadership has indicated that they are not only aware of the issue but also agree that it's important. I think one thing that has happened since the last time an estimate was made is that Google's release model has changed in ways that require more labor from the GrapheneOS developers.

So far what I do is a mixture of choosing apps that have a way to export and import data, doing a SeedVault backup from time to time with low expectations, and hoping. It's not ideal but for me it's definitely not a waste of time.

DeletedUser43

Johnny4939 But Tresorit is just a E2E cloud storage, right? It cannot access the private storage of apps in Graphene either?

Yes, I use it only for apps which don't have cloud backend. In those cases they always have native backup/export. I use that and upload it to Tresorit. Manually, app by app.

Johnny4939 What if your phone breaks/ is stolen?

I don't keep anything important on apps without cloud backend. I even prefer it his way, because I'd forget to take backup manually.

Still, I totally get it, this is not a solution for everyone, especially in this community a lot of people avoid cloud, and they would benefit a lot from a good Seedvault replacement. I believe it will be solved at some point, but for now, if you want the safest mobile OS, you're forced to make this compromise.

GrouchyGrape

@Johnny4939 I wish there was a better method currently but there isn't. It's unfair to place any blame on the devs that are already working hard to keep the most secure and private OS up to date. I am eagerly and patiently awaiting their implemented backup solution. What I can say is that I'm confident that when it's finally released, it'll be robust and reliable.

In the meantime, I've migrated nearly all my data to self-hosted cloud solutions and try to only use self-hosted web based solutions or choose apps that have built in backup. Now, when I get a new phone, factory reset, create a new profile, etc. I can be back up and running in about 30 min or so which is very acceptable for me.

Johnny4939

GrouchyGrape It could be the perfect OS, whats it's worth if you can't get your data in and out. "choose the right apps" is a nice dream, but - just one example - I cannot make all my contacts use special "graphene-friendly messenger" just because graphene fails to provide means available on android 4 (my first smartphone).

Graphene+Magisk+Autoupdate seems impossible either. Too bad.

GrouchyGrape

Johnny4939 graphene-friendly messenger

I'm sorry, can you elaborate? I don't think I've heard of a messaging app that doesn't work on GrapheneOS. Even RCS works (although some seem to have issues getting it to activate, I haven't in the couple years I've been on GOS).

Johnny4939 It could be the perfect OS

I don't think you'll ever find "the perfect OS". You simply have to lay out your priorities and decide what fits you best. For me, GOS is not "perfect" but it's leaps and bounds better than the alternatives.

Johnny4939

GrouchyGrape It was meant as "even if it was perfect, it is useless, if ..."

Byku

Does this procedure work on GOS?
https://www.android.com/transfer-data-android-to-android/
Or is this a google account feature?

pwmsensitive

Byku Does this procedure work on GOS?
https://www.android.com/transfer-data-android-to-android/

I haven't seen this feature in the GOS setup screen.

But this was new to me: "If you are a Pixel 9, Pixel 9 Pro, or Pixel 9 Pro Fold user, you can now access Android Switch after you’ve already set up your device." https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.restore

Dumdum

Open_Source_Enjoyer Is seedvault a security risk or how do you mean it?

That any potential replacements (such as the previously mentioned Neo Backup) have to be secure and well-coded enough to be used in the OS. I would imagine if Neo Backup (or any other option) was suitable in terms of security/quality/licensing etc, then it would have been used already.

I'm not a programmer and definitely not a member of the dev team, so its not up to me to say exactly what the reason 100% is or isn't. I'm merely pointing out factors that could impact any decisions that are made regarding app replacements.

Carlos-Anso

Theres a robust, elegant and well maintained Backup Manager service built into AOSP which is what Google Backup uses on stock Android operating systems and is also what Seedvault uses. Seedvault has various issues that can make it unreliable.

Neobackup, Titanium backup etc. dont use this service which in turn makes them more of a hack and unreliable.

Whatever GrapheneOS uses for backups will be utilizing Backup Manager presenting as a device to device transport so that it can reliably backup as much data from the app as possible.

You can get more details about Backup Manager here
https://developer.android.com/identity/data/testingbackup

Last year there were changes to aosp which means that apps with a recent targetSDK, by default, provide more of their data to Backup Manager. It wont take long for the majority of maintained android apps to be using this targetSDK which in turn should help to provide more complete backups.